I think it symbolizes the government who tries to control the population. Eventhough the government has control most of the society, there are still a couple of rebels who have the choice whether to follow the laws or not. I also agree with Eric when he says that it symbolizes your subconsious and your ability to chose or listen to it.
This shows the relationship between the world and the intelectual. We need the smart people to lead us, to take control and better soceity. Faber helps Montag make smart intelegent decisions. The run the wold and hold it togeather.
As a respond to REhannas questions, i think that the green bullet and FAber telling Montag what to do,to me symbolizes parents. We know that they are always there but we have the choice whether to listen to them or innore them, but we know that we will have consequences that follow
I think that Faber talking to Montog through the bullet shows that sometimes he listens to what he wants to do, but Faber is the "good" in Montogs subconsiouse. And we do not always listen to what our consouse tells us to do because we are scared of what other people will think.
@Corbin- I don't know exactly if Beatty is the devil but I think he has that vibe around im. I feel like there is something we're missing about Beatty. Like he is keeping a secret.
I think that we are often persuaded by the way people look, or are steriotyped. I know at Arapahoe a lto of kids voted for our Class President because he did the most campaighning, but in my opinion he was not the best choice. I think that this will always happen though.
I agree with Rheana, prejudices persuade us to vote or think a certain way. If someone is not well put together versus a more well dressed person, no matter their views, I believe some people will gravitate to the more familiar and 'approacable' choice.
I agree with Maria, when she said that the people in the society will vote for someone who is hansome and looks good. This could relate to our day now. Not to get too political. but now that we have an African American president you have to wonder if they voted for him just to have the first African American president.
I think that beatty had a bad experience with books and it caused him to stop reading them and turn his passion he once had for books, into hate. He has knowledge of books that you could only learn from reading one. Something made him despise him though.
I agree with Matt's statement- we as teenagers don't really think before we act when we are about to do something, and I think that can relate to our society in such a way that people can make stupid decisions before they think about the possible consequences.
@Amanda-I diisagree with you when you say that Montag symbolizes the devil. I think that Montag more symbolized the confusion in people. Not the bad and evil. I think that Beatty more symbolized the devil then Montog.
I think that the near death incident that Montag experienced is similar to how teenagers act today. Now-a-days, teens are going out at night and vandalizing property not thinking of the effects that their actions may make. Someones ignorrance may greatly effect someone else in ways they don't know.
Popularity in recent political figures is less about their looks and more about what they stand for. Obama stood for pretty much anything you want: the oppressed, the poor, the youth, etc. The perfect wild card. The 2008 election, expeccialy amung the young voters, was less about the actual politics and more about what each looked like.
I disagree with Amanda when she said that Montag represents the devil, because he might have been the devil in the beggining but when ,you think about it he has calmed down and isn't as rational. If anyone was the devil it would be Beaty, because as you could see in our last reading, he verbaly attacked Montag to manipulate him and make him loose his focus.
@Cloe- I sort of disagree with you. I think Matt is a good president as a lot of is main concerns are with the students. He helps head up You Matter and he is a really nice guy. I can see how he might have been voted in because he is a poplar guy, but I think he has fulfilled his position rather well.
I think that when Montag hears Mildred's friend talk about how many divorces she's had, it makes him realize that him and Mildred aren't that far off from that, and I think this goes back to the "true love" part of their relationship.
In response to Maria's question, I believe that as a society, we judge people of their appearences and physical qualities. I cannot imagine how it was for the people in their age because they can't think for themselves and only choose by what they see, not what to think.And to comment on the whole teenage driving issue, i feel that teenage drivers are indeed careless and dangerous. They think that speeding is fun ans take pleasure in road games that can affect someone severly and possibly take their life. That relates to drinking for kids our age, people do it because it's "fun" and they dont' consider the effects at all. Living in the moment. I have realized that what we do today affects future generations. We cannot just live in the moment, we have to consider what we are doing and how it will benfit/hurt the world and if it is worth that.
Montag was stupid to quote thr poetry. It got him and trouble and he lost everything. He should have listened to Faber, The smart one. It is intesting that he would quote this poem. I think this was one of the only poems in the book and he felt the need to "show off" his new knoledge. He just picked it, because their wasn't a wide selction.
The women were taught not to think about the sad state of their lives. When Montag forced the women to step away from forced "tapioka" thought and into real substantial thought, they couldn't handle the levity of their situation.
I agree. Montag should have contained himself. By reading the poem he exposed himself as having books, putting him in danger with the law. If he would have listened to Faber they would have any easier time to spread and reprint books, and he minimized his chances of spreading knowledge to the society.
Because of how much society has degraded in knowledge, no one thinks for themselves so they create shallow opinions and ideas that follow the rest of the crowd. For society's system to work, people must NOT question anything, and that is why people so easily decide to choose the more attractive man in the elections, even though he may not be more qualified.
I think that as generations come and go, violence grows as and issue. I feel that it gives people a rush and they end up wanting more. This is pushed for each new generation.
Cartoons seem to get more and more violent, but they get more violent for the pleasure of the audience. Nobody wants to watch a movie about a perfect life where no conflicts arise. People would just get bored.
Cartoons and entertainment become more violent as time goes on because, in all honestly, people think it's funny to see others' pain. Even really little kids laugh when they see somebody getting hurt. (e.g. in Lord of the Flies, the little'uns are cheered up by one of he boys falling over and acting like he is hurt.)
I'm quite disturbed by the disconnect between violence and reality. How many of you get a thrill from watching some violent, sick, scary thriller movie? That's what is scary to me.
The violence that has been brought into modern entertainment is not an exageration. This shift is a move towards reality and away from cencorship. People do seek out this violence for pleasure: an angry person wants to beat someone without the consequences. This is what a video game is.
In responce to Troy's question i think that cartoons are getting more violent because violence is more appropriate. Also now a days violence is funny, but I think that the "violence" is an awful influence. Teenagers and younger kids are starting to think that hurting eachother is o.k. Violent video games and movies could turn into the cars almost hitting people for fun, in our own society.
I think cartoons are violent because it wouldn't keep us interested, we would get bored and would move on to a more violent show. Troy is right, the most popular games are shooting, killing games. Our society is all about violence.
Branching off of what JM said, The more kids and adults are exposed to violence in media and entertainment, the less they react to it when it happens in real time. It like building an immunity
@mmoritz- I think that a lot of us are not faced with the fact face to face that people really are dying out in the real world. Because it is not as evident to us, or some other, we get that thrill. I think that violance is completely wrong. Some do it to get anger out and others have no reason. I think it's kind of just human nature I guess.
In the book, noone is effected by death. In a way I think this relates to our society. There are tons of horror movies currently out that only contain killings, no definite plot. I think it's crazy how so many people can watch this, with little being effected, just like Montag's society.
Violence is disregarded because of the thrill we get from such events. It attracts the attention of children of a younger age. They are starting to think that violence is something that you pretend. For example, kids are given toy swords and guns, but they don't know that a gun is actually a real and dangerous thing.
Life has become more violent. Crime is rising and what happens in the real world slowly trickles into the false world in movies, tv, and video games. It gives children a false sence of secutrity. They learn from movies, tv, and video games that it isn't real or they will just respawn and that running around in an airport with a machine gun killing civilians is okay! When the reach the real world and do what they have learned in video games they will get hurt and possibly hurt someone and then they will suffer the punishments.
I think Troy has a good point. If we see people dying on TV, it does desensitize us. We see this in 451, both in the wives who don't care if their husbands die in the war, and in the fact that kids, including Clarisse, will kill each other just for fun. The kids in the car that almost killed Monatag thought "let's get him," and almost killed him just for fun.
The loss of human life has been done so many times before that it starts to matter less and less. These people have seen death over and over on the TV. That makes real loss more familliar.
I also agree with Troy when he says that cartoons are getting more and more violent- and I think that in Fahrenheit 451 the government can choose which shows or cartoons the public views, because if the average person starts to see very violent cartoons such as the clows being torn apart, they might become desensitized to what is going on around them and start to take action, like Montag is.
Matt brought up a good point that suicide and death in this book is very common. But in the 451 society they arent emotionally attached to people, so when they die they aren't effected. I think that our society is also heading in this dirrection because suicide in our community is becoming more and more common. And death is too. We dont want out societ to fall into this rut where we marry someone, and when they die, we get married again. But with no emotional strings attached.
I feel like in Fahrneheit 451, suicide even more common than today. We see a lot of suicides in our time, but it seems like people aren't caring as much if someone takes their own life. When Mildred was talking about Gloria's husband, it sounded like she didn't even fell sad. Maybe people don't feel sadness just like they don't feel love.
@troy in the inner circle- I agree that things are getting more and more violent. Kid's in this genertaion are so much more exposed to things that they would not be exposed to several years ago. Things have became more violent purely for entertainment. i can relate to this because of my 10 year old brother who is totally engaged in the TV and loves watching all of the "funny" slap stick humor. I also agree that people do not fully understand death until they experience it for themselves. I know that even me, I thought i knew what death would be like, I thought it would be sad and painful, but until last summer I really had no idea. I experienced my first lost in the family and the emotional toll it took on me was WAY more then i expected it to. i think that this is partly a result of the media because we are so sheltered!I'm really not sure which would be better... being underexposed to the tradgedy of death or know what it is like and experience it first hand through the media. With Rhianna- people do not know what happiness is. And Saibe, I agree, you have to have sadness to know happiness. What else wouldl we compare it to? We would have nothing to compare it to. People feel happy, they are convinced that they are happy, but they have no idea what the true meaning of happiness is. I relate this to the movie, "the pursuit of happiness" i feel that this movie is one of the best that expresses what we take for granted and how happiness is different for everyone else :)
I agree with Sabie. No one can only be happy because to actually know happiness, you must experience sadness. No one in this utopia has experienced sadness before so, they only THINK that they are happy. They find "pleasure" in activities that give them thrills and excitement, but if that is all you ever experience, it is like you are dependent on that feeling of pleasure to the point where you don't want anything more but to be "happy."
I think that Beatty wanted to die because of all the literature that he read. Perhaps he read some nonfiction books, and realized that the world he lives in isn't a good society at all.
Corbin-- To me the war symbolizes how the nation is constantly at war trying to do something so arbitrary that it really doesn't matter. Post WWII America has pretty much always been at war: a war that doesn't affect the people like a Civil War or a WWI. A big government is bound to step on someone's toes and has to defend itself. A lot.
I think that Beatty, in a way, committed suicide. He completely got rid of his old life and when he actually felt free and happy. He gave up that life to be the exact opposite. And I have to wonder, why did he change so drastically? Is it just because he became a firemen?
I agree with what cassie said about how Montag had to clense himself after killing Beatty. Its like they are in such shock that they believe taking a shower or washing their hands will clense themselves of the murder. In reality, the person is still dead after you wash your hands, they wont come back.
@mmoritz- Suicide is preventable, but isn't almost everything else wrong in our world also preventble? I think even with suicide being preventable it, in most cases, prevention doesn't help. If someones in that mind set it is hard to get them out.
@Mmoritz. I do believe that in a sense, beatty did commit suicide. If he didn't want to die, he would have moved out of the way and resisted against Montag when he sprayed fire on him. He obviously wanted to escape from the world. He knew too much and I feel that he didn't want to be there. He was alone and I dont' quite understand why he wouldn't accept Montag when he started thinking like Beatty. i feel that Beatty has had a past experience that we don't know anout that made him fear Montag so bad. maybe he saw too much of himself in him.
@Kate- I think that muder is the only way that the people of this society can have a way into reality. They know that now not everyone is the same. There are bad people that will kill people. When the people of the society hear the bell, they now know that not everyone just sits and watches their parlor walls, but there are some that are out there killing. When someone commited suicide, they know that that person is gone and there is no threat. Also, it's so common that people don't think anything of it. But murder is alien to them, and since it's alien people don't know what to do so it causes havoc.
I think it is fine that Montag killed Beatty. Beatty had it coming, it was only a matter of time before some book-loving people came and killed him because he burns books. I don't think it should bother Montag that much.
I think that Beatty probably became a fireman to get away from all the knowledge. He possibly felt guilty for reading all those books and decided instead of being against the law he would be the law. This way he could get rid of his guilt, which as the inner circle said was not a feeling the government wanted to enforce.
I disagree with reheana when she said that Montag's world flipped upside down when Clarisse came into his life. I think that his world went into turmoil when Clarisse dissapeared. After he found out she was dead, Montag seemed to always be mad.
I think Beatty wanted to die, just so he could have a final victory over Montag. It sounds unusual, but I think Beatty may have become obsessed with convincing Montag that books are not the answer. Also, I don't think Montag murdered Beatty because he was desensitized. He never really watched TV, so he did not see violence there, and when Clarisse died, I think it made Montag even more sensitive to violence and death. I think Montag murdered Beatty because he really had nothing to lose; he had lost his house, his wife, his friend Faber, and he was under arrest after he finished destroying his house. Also, he was defending Faber, because he didn't want Beatty to trace the green bullet and arrest him too.
Cloe- Just because it is preventable doesn't necessarily MEAN it's preventable. Like with the issue with suicide you can talk and talk and talk to that person all you want, but that doesn't guarantee that you've convinced that person not to kill themselves.
@Cloe-I agree with you. If someone is determined to kill themselves, they will do it. But I also believe that if I am invited to help someone who indicates they are contemplating suicide, I would (hopefully) be able to prevent it.
Montag will never be happy. He will always be searching for something more. He has become a political activist, and those never rest until the world is exactly the way they think it should be. Alice Paul, a womens' sufferiget, won women the right to vote. That did not satisfy her: she continued working in politics for women until she died in the 1970's.
Its ironic how Beatty said, "If you have a problem, don't face it, burn it." Beatty was Montag's problem. . . so he burnt them. At first Montag is facinated by fire and a typical fireman, then he fears fire when he sees what it does to people an their books, then Montag finally sees fire as a weapon.
Corbin-- Yes, the nation today is constantly at war. We fought two wars within the Cold War: Vietnam and Korea, along with many additional side conflicts. Now that the Cold War is over, there is a brand new threat: Islamo-fascism and terrorism. There will always be something more to fight. This war may not even end before the next one begins at this rate.
I think that with Kai's comment I agree that it's ironic, but I don't think it's that much so as the book progresses, because Montag changes his views on what he really thinks about fire.
@Joe-I do not think that Alice Paul was not satisfied, I think she enjoyed working for women's suffrage. I also think that Montag will be happy, because if he can think freely he will enjoy it, though he might not get to the ultimate destination of his thinking, whatever that is.
@Corbin-- Suicide prevention works.My mom is a social worker and I have learned tt is not just talking, the people you meet with are trained professionals, they present ways to treat the suicidal thoughts. It is not just come in, sit on the couch, and tell me how that makes you feel.
I think that Beatty was not trying to commit suicide. I believe that he was trying to egg on Montag so that Montag would do something rash, but not kill him. He was conspiring against Montag to get him in trouble but not anger him enough to commit murder
Joe- I agree with you that our nation today is constantly at war, but only to some extent. Back in the 1920's the U.S. as well as many other countries signed various peace treaties to prevent war, and it worked for a while. The only question I still have for you is how is the war going on today relevant to whats going on in the book, and what does that war have to do with anything?
I like what Kai said... In this society, people are afraid to face their problems. I honestly don't think that they are stable enough or mentally capable of solving their issues. So they find ways to get rid of them like burning them, sleeping pills, palor walls, whatever you need to somewhat distract yourself. In our society, we turn to similar things, drugs, alcohol, sex, technology. It's sad. We need to find ways to face our problems and get through them.
I disagree with Kai, I don't think Montag sees fire as a weapon, he sees it as a method of destroying things. It is there to erase information, get rid of knowledge. However, now that Montag values knowledge, he sees fire as a bad thing, he sees it as a tool.
John Michael-- Alice Paul worked for womens' rights because she was driven to make the world a better place. Sure, she did enjoy her successes, but she never stopped and was satisfied with the ones she had already accomplished.
I agree with Joe, because from what I have seen, Montag is one of those people that just can't get enough and be happy. In the begging he had everyhing, and he wasn't happy. He had books, but he wasn't happy. He had FAber, but he wasn't happy. He's now killed Beaty, but still isn't happy. What extent will he go to, to be happy?
@Spencer-If Beatty was not trying to get Montag to kill him, what was he trying to get him to do? What other "rash" thing would he do with a flamethrower?
Going off of what Emma in the inner circle said about what impact would have been made if clarisse had not dissapeared, I think it would have turned out similar but not te same or totally different. I believe Montag would have continued reading and collecting books. I do not believe though, that it would have ended in the killing of Beatty.
Peter- I understand that, but I'm still not convinced that that method works. I mean, if you were having suicidal thoughts would you just want to talk about it? Personally I would want to find a way to blow off some steam, along with talking to someone about my problems.
Maria- I think the woman in the house was the real turning point for Montag. Clarisse was pushing him toward it, but the older lady's motivation for her books really changed him. I think him killing Beatty was just part of his new self.
I agree with Peter- I think that Clarisse played a huge part in stimulating Montag's thinking about how the whole system and society that he lives in is completely corrupted.
@Peter- There is a difference thoug between depression and suicidal. I do not think that a suicidal person would willingly go to a social worker. Not even a depressed person. It would have to be by force. I think that a depressed person can be helped, but a suicidal person needs more then a "trained professional".
People who are truly suicidal don't usually want to open up about their feelings or reach out. Depression is a very complexed state for the person in that state and everyone around them.
I agree with Emma. She said that the lady really pushed him to look at books. He saw that she would die for her books, so Montag's curiostiy about books grew and he wanted to try it. The real question is that I have been asking. Did Montag really want to read the books? Or was he just carrying on the "defyinitng the system" act that the lady did when she died?
I think Clarisse was the open door for Montag to actually realize the faults of the government and their society. He was intrigued by her, but didn't actually start to question the government and books to a great extent until the woman commited suicide with her books. This helped Montag realize that there is something more in the world, and actually took action to find Faber and reprint the books.
@Corbin-- those methods that I mentioned are healthy, constructive ways to blow off some steam, not just to blow your brians out or go to sleep forever.
@Cloe-So it sounds like you think that all people who have considered suicidal are helpless and people shouldn't try to stop them or help them because they cannot be helped. Do you really think that?
Corbin-- You mentioned the Versilles Peace Agreement after WWI, right? It worked for 10 years. There were still wars being faught in Asia and the Pacific. WWII broke out because this peace treaty failed as it put the desires of selfishness over actually settling anything. Bradbury mentions how there are always jets flying overhead and the sound of gunfire way up in the sky. Bradbury predicted that the big nation that is the US will always be at war and this war will be very far removed from the actual people. Do you feel close, or even affected by the Iraq war? Are you buying Liberty Bonds and growing Vicory Gardens like they did in his day?
Up towards the middle. Peter said that Beaty and it coming. I totally agree. You can't burn books, and be push people around forver. Karma did him in, and it was only a metter of time before he was killed.
I don't think Montag made a good decision in showing the books to the women. Even if it did make an impression on them, they are just like Mildred, and they will not act on it, because they are satisfied with their current lives, and they do not want to change anything because of the risk of their unhappiness.
@RChamber--Yes, but they usually give indicators and if you are trained to look for these indicators, you can figure out if they are suicidal or depressed.
I think that Fabor is using Montag, because while he sits safely behind enemy lines, so to speak, he is sending Montag out to do all the dirty work to expose the fireman.
Katie-- I agree, but I don't think it was Karma's doing. Any opressed people will rise up against the opressor, as seen over and over throughout history.
@mmoritz- No!!! I think that they can be helped but i believe that the only person that can help them is themselves. I also think that people should comfort them, but some people don't know what to do or what to say, so they make it worse. Most people say stuff like "think about your family" giving a suicidal person the guilt trip isn't the best choice.
@Cloe-- a person usualy seeks help for other problems (PTSD, depresion, Biopolar,etc) before the reach a suicidal state. The trained profesionals stop suicide before it become an issue. Plans are put into place, to help reconize and counter suidial thoughts and or actions.
@ JM Maybe it didn't have to be with the flamethrower. Maybe he would (before he was discovered with the books)plant books in Beatty's house and have Beatty arrested.
@Mmortiz. I agree:) also, on your earlier comment to Cloe, i do believe that anyone who is suicidal is not beyond the point of return. There is always help and hope fo them- they just have to be willing to accept it.
@Spencer-He could not have done that because he would have been in jail. Also, why would Beatty want books planted in his house? If he was not tring to kill himself, then you are implying he is just trying to punish himslef, and that would be a lot easier to do if he did not use Montag to do it; he could have found a way to do it himself.
Joe- No I am not, but I don't agree with you when you say that the plans flying overhead in the book represents America being at war all the time. You specifically said that the Treaty of Versaille worked for 10 years, so isn't that a period of time where the U.S. was NOT at war? And I wasn't talking about other nations I was just focusing on America personally, because it would be stupid for me to say that there won't ever be wars throughout the war. My point is that in the book just because there are war planes flying over the suburban area doesn't necessarily mean that the U.S is always at war. It could be just at that time that they were engaged in combat.
I agree with Troy when he said that hurt can build people up. It seems like when people get hurt, it just makes them want to do more to overcome the pain that was inflicted upon them.
I don't think that Beaty commited suicide, I think that he did just give up and not wnat to fight anymore. @Casey- I do think that Beaty was in Montag's position. He knew so much, and kind of knew Montag's position. He just knew when enough was enough to keep everyone safe unlike Montag
@Kai Bin-If Montag was using Beatty wanting to die as an excuse for his actions, why did he fall, almost paralyzed, at the thought? It seemed more like he was unhappy with the fact that Beatty wanted to die.
Corbin-- Okay that makes sense. But in the modern age, you have to admit that wars or at least conflicts are more frequent. They're getting more fequent and closer together, no?
@ JM I was saying that before Mildren called the fireman like days before. Montag would have planted the books in Beattys house to remove the threat. Much like Macbeth.
I think the bullet represents our choices as people and what we decide to listen to as a person, to make their own choice.
ReplyDeleteFaber acts almost as a God figure it seems like. He is always there to know what you are doing. No wonder "Faber" sounds like "father".
ReplyDeleteI think that Beatty is the devil, because he is trying to discourage Montag from reading books.
ReplyDeleteI think it symbolizes the government who tries to control the population. Eventhough the government has control most of the society, there are still a couple of rebels who have the choice whether to follow the laws or not. I also agree with Eric when he says that it symbolizes your subconsious and your ability to chose or listen to it.
ReplyDeleteThis shows the relationship between the world and the intelectual. We need the smart people to lead us, to take control and better soceity. Faber helps Montag make smart intelegent decisions. The run the wold and hold it togeather.
ReplyDeleteAs a respond to REhannas questions, i think that the green bullet and FAber telling Montag what to do,to me symbolizes parents. We know that they are always there but we have the choice whether to listen to them or innore them, but we know that we will have consequences that follow
ReplyDeleteI think that Faber talking to Montog through the bullet shows that sometimes he listens to what he wants to do, but Faber is the "good" in Montogs subconsiouse. And we do not always listen to what our consouse tells us to do because we are scared of what other people will think.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Katie, because I also see some similarities between Montag and Fabor that I see between parents and children.
ReplyDeleteThere is no person who is only good or only evil. It all depends on perspective.
ReplyDelete@Corbin- I don't know exactly if Beatty is the devil but I think he has that vibe around im. I feel like there is something we're missing about Beatty. Like he is keeping a secret.
ReplyDeleteI think that, yes, people vote and base their decisions off of looks or how popular they are. It is sad.
ReplyDeleteI think that Montag symbolizes the devil because he is always in a fit of rage, while Faber is very calm and doesn't let things get to him easily.
ReplyDeleteI think that we are often persuaded by the way people look, or are steriotyped. I know at Arapahoe a lto of kids voted for our Class President because he did the most campaighning, but in my opinion he was not the best choice. I think that this will always happen though.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Rheana, prejudices persuade us to vote or think a certain way. If someone is not well put together versus a more well dressed person, no matter their views, I believe some people will gravitate to the more familiar and 'approacable' choice.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Maria, when she said that the people in the society will vote for someone who is hansome and looks good. This could relate to our day now. Not to get too political. but now that we have an African American president you have to wonder if they voted for him just to have the first African American president.
ReplyDeleteI think that beatty had a bad experience with books and it caused him to stop reading them and turn his passion he once had for books, into hate. He has knowledge of books that you could only learn from reading one. Something made him despise him though.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Matt's statement- we as teenagers don't really think before we act when we are about to do something, and I think that can relate to our society in such a way that people can make stupid decisions before they think about the possible consequences.
ReplyDelete@Amanda-I diisagree with you when you say that Montag symbolizes the devil. I think that Montag more symbolized the confusion in people. Not the bad and evil. I think that Beatty more symbolized the devil then Montog.
ReplyDeleteI think that the near death incident that Montag experienced is similar to how teenagers act today. Now-a-days, teens are going out at night and vandalizing property not thinking of the effects that their actions may make. Someones ignorrance may greatly effect someone else in ways they don't know.
ReplyDeletePopularity in recent political figures is less about their looks and more about what they stand for. Obama stood for pretty much anything you want: the oppressed, the poor, the youth, etc. The perfect wild card. The 2008 election, expeccialy amung the young voters, was less about the actual politics and more about what each looked like.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Amanda when she said that Montag represents the devil, because he might have been the devil in the beggining but when ,you think about it he has calmed down and isn't as rational. If anyone was the devil it would be Beaty, because as you could see in our last reading, he verbaly attacked Montag to manipulate him and make him loose his focus.
ReplyDelete@Cloe- I sort of disagree with you. I think Matt is a good president as a lot of is main concerns are with the students. He helps head up You Matter and he is a really nice guy. I can see how he might have been voted in because he is a poplar guy, but I think he has fulfilled his position rather well.
ReplyDeleteI think that when Montag hears Mildred's friend talk about how many divorces she's had, it makes him realize that him and Mildred aren't that far off from that, and I think this goes back to the "true love" part of their relationship.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Maria's question, I believe that as a society, we judge people of their appearences and physical qualities. I cannot imagine how it was for the people in their age because they can't think for themselves and only choose by what they see, not what to think.And to comment on the whole teenage driving issue, i feel that teenage drivers are indeed careless and dangerous. They think that speeding is fun ans take pleasure in road games that can affect someone severly and possibly take their life. That relates to drinking for kids our age, people do it because it's "fun" and they dont' consider the effects at all. Living in the moment. I have realized that what we do today affects future generations. We cannot just live in the moment, we have to consider what we are doing and how it will benfit/hurt the world and if it is worth that.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMontag was stupid to quote thr poetry. It got him and trouble and he lost everything. He should have listened to Faber, The smart one. It is intesting that he would quote this poem. I think this was one of the only poems in the book and he felt the need to "show off" his new knoledge. He just picked it, because their wasn't a wide selction.
ReplyDelete@Cloe and Abby-- Please do not use students names.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe women were taught not to think about the sad state of their lives. When Montag forced the women to step away from forced "tapioka" thought and into real substantial thought, they couldn't handle the levity of their situation.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Montag should have contained himself. By reading the poem he exposed himself as having books, putting him in danger with the law. If he would have listened to Faber they would have any easier time to spread and reprint books, and he minimized his chances of spreading knowledge to the society.
ReplyDeleteBecause of how much society has degraded in knowledge, no one thinks for themselves so they create shallow opinions and ideas that follow the rest of the crowd. For society's system to work, people must NOT question anything, and that is why people so easily decide to choose the more attractive man in the elections, even though he may not be more qualified.
ReplyDeleteI think that as generations come and go, violence grows as and issue. I feel that it gives people a rush and they end up wanting more. This is pushed for each new generation.
ReplyDeleteCartoons seem to get more and more violent, but they get more violent for the pleasure of the audience. Nobody wants to watch a movie about a perfect life where no conflicts arise. People would just get bored.
ReplyDeleteCartoons and entertainment become more violent as time goes on because, in all honestly, people think it's funny to see others' pain. Even really little kids laugh when they see somebody getting hurt. (e.g. in Lord of the Flies, the little'uns are cheered up by one of he boys falling over and acting like he is hurt.)
ReplyDeleteI'm quite disturbed by the disconnect between violence and reality. How many of you get a thrill from watching some violent, sick, scary thriller movie? That's what is scary to me.
ReplyDeleteThe violence that has been brought into modern entertainment is not an exageration. This shift is a move towards reality and away from cencorship. People do seek out this violence for pleasure: an angry person wants to beat someone without the consequences. This is what a video game is.
ReplyDeleteIn responce to Troy's question i think that cartoons are getting more violent because violence is more appropriate. Also now a days violence is funny, but I think that the "violence" is an awful influence. Teenagers and younger kids are starting to think that hurting eachother is o.k. Violent video games and movies could turn into the cars almost hitting people for fun, in our own society.
ReplyDeleteI think cartoons are violent because it wouldn't keep us interested, we would get bored and would move on to a more violent show. Troy is right, the most popular games are shooting, killing games. Our society is all about violence.
ReplyDeleteBranching off of what JM said, The more kids and adults are exposed to violence in media and entertainment, the less they react to it when it happens in real time. It like building an immunity
ReplyDelete@Dam-How psychotic is that?
ReplyDelete@mmoritz- I think that a lot of us are not faced with the fact face to face that people really are dying out in the real world. Because it is not as evident to us, or some other, we get that thrill. I think that violance is completely wrong. Some do it to get anger out and others have no reason. I think it's kind of just human nature I guess.
ReplyDeleteIn the book, noone is effected by death. In a way I think this relates to our society. There are tons of horror movies currently out that only contain killings, no definite plot. I think it's crazy how so many people can watch this, with little being effected, just like Montag's society.
ReplyDeleteViolence is disregarded because of the thrill we get from such events. It attracts the attention of children of a younger age. They are starting to think that violence is something that you pretend. For example, kids are given toy swords and guns, but they don't know that a gun is actually a real and dangerous thing.
ReplyDeleteLife has become more violent. Crime is rising and what happens in the real world slowly trickles into the false world in movies, tv, and video games. It gives children a false sence of secutrity. They learn from movies, tv, and video games that it isn't real or they will just respawn and that running around in an airport with a machine gun killing civilians is okay! When the reach the real world and do what they have learned in video games they will get hurt and possibly hurt someone and then they will suffer the punishments.
ReplyDeleteI think Troy has a good point. If we see people dying on TV, it does desensitize us. We see this in 451, both in the wives who don't care if their husbands die in the war, and in the fact that kids, including Clarisse, will kill each other just for fun. The kids in the car that almost killed Monatag thought "let's get him," and almost killed him just for fun.
ReplyDeleteThe loss of human life has been done so many times before that it starts to matter less and less. These people have seen death over and over on the TV. That makes real loss more familliar.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Troy when he says that cartoons are getting more and more violent- and I think that in Fahrenheit 451 the government can choose which shows or cartoons the public views, because if the average person starts to see very violent cartoons such as the clows being torn apart, they might become desensitized to what is going on around them and start to take action, like Montag is.
ReplyDeleteMatt brought up a good point that suicide and death in this book is very common. But in the 451 society they arent emotionally attached to people, so when they die they aren't effected. I think that our society is also heading in this dirrection because suicide in our community is becoming more and more common. And death is too. We dont want out societ to fall into this rut where we marry someone, and when they die, we get married again. But with no emotional strings attached.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Cloe. The book and our life are very different, however they are quite the same.
ReplyDeleteI'm still a little confused on what the war symbolizes in this book. Why does it have an impact on the overall story?
ReplyDeleteI feel like in Fahrneheit 451, suicide even more common than today. We see a lot of suicides in our time, but it seems like people aren't caring as much if someone takes their own life. When Mildred was talking about Gloria's husband, it sounded like she didn't even fell sad. Maybe people don't feel sadness just like they don't feel love.
ReplyDelete@troy in the inner circle- I agree that things are getting more and more violent. Kid's in this genertaion are so much more exposed to things that they would not be exposed to several years ago. Things have became more violent purely for entertainment. i can relate to this because of my 10 year old brother who is totally engaged in the TV and loves watching all of the "funny" slap stick humor. I also agree that people do not fully understand death until they experience it for themselves. I know that even me, I thought i knew what death would be like, I thought it would be sad and painful, but until last summer I really had no idea. I experienced my first lost in the family and the emotional toll it took on me was WAY more then i expected it to. i think that this is partly a result of the media because we are so sheltered!I'm really not sure which would be better... being underexposed to the tradgedy of death or know what it is like and experience it first hand through the media. With Rhianna- people do not know what happiness is. And Saibe, I agree, you have to have sadness to know happiness. What else wouldl we compare it to? We would have nothing to compare it to. People feel happy, they are convinced that they are happy, but they have no idea what the true meaning of happiness is. I relate this to the movie, "the pursuit of happiness" i feel that this movie is one of the best that expresses what we take for granted and how happiness is different for everyone else :)
ReplyDeleteIn conjunction with what Riley just said in the inner circle--do you think Beatty (in a sense) committed suicide?
ReplyDelete@Corbin- I think we will learn more as we finish the story
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Amanda- Absolutely. Suicide is more prevalent then ever before.
ReplyDelete@Peter and Corbin--You will.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sabie. No one can only be happy because to actually know happiness, you must experience sadness. No one in this utopia has experienced sadness before so, they only THINK that they are happy. They find "pleasure" in activities that give them thrills and excitement, but if that is all you ever experience, it is like you are dependent on that feeling of pleasure to the point where you don't want anything more but to be "happy."
ReplyDeleteI think that Beatty wanted to die because of all the literature that he read. Perhaps he read some nonfiction books, and realized that the world he lives in isn't a good society at all.
ReplyDeleteI think Beatty did commmit suicude, because it didn't seem like he really cared anymore to have the will to live.
ReplyDelete@mmoritz-Okay
ReplyDeleteCorbin-- To me the war symbolizes how the nation is constantly at war trying to do something so arbitrary that it really doesn't matter. Post WWII America has pretty much always been at war: a war that doesn't affect the people like a Civil War or a WWI. A big government is bound to step on someone's toes and has to defend itself. A lot.
ReplyDeleteI think that Beatty, in a way, committed suicide. He completely got rid of his old life and when he actually felt free and happy. He gave up that life to be the exact opposite. And I have to wonder, why did he change so drastically? Is it just because he became a firemen?
ReplyDeleteI agree with what cassie said about how Montag had to clense himself after killing Beatty. Its like they are in such shock that they believe taking a shower or washing their hands will clense themselves of the murder. In reality, the person is still dead after you wash your hands, they wont come back.
ReplyDeleteJoe- But what is the nation constantly at war with? And are you talking about the book or in real life society today?
ReplyDeleteI think that the government doesn't really care how people are feeling. I believe they set the "rules", follow them, and that is that.
ReplyDelete@mmoritz- Suicide is preventable, but isn't almost everything else wrong in our world also preventble? I think even with suicide being preventable it, in most cases, prevention doesn't help. If someones in that mind set it is hard to get them out.
ReplyDelete@Mmoritz. I do believe that in a sense, beatty did commit suicide. If he didn't want to die, he would have moved out of the way and resisted against Montag when he sprayed fire on him. He obviously wanted to escape from the world. He knew too much and I feel that he didn't want to be there. He was alone and I dont' quite understand why he wouldn't accept Montag when he started thinking like Beatty. i feel that Beatty has had a past experience that we don't know anout that made him fear Montag so bad. maybe he saw too much of himself in him.
ReplyDelete@Kate- I think that muder is the only way that the people of this society can have a way into reality. They know that now not everyone is the same. There are bad people that will kill people. When the people of the society hear the bell, they now know that not everyone just sits and watches their parlor walls, but there are some that are out there killing. When someone commited suicide, they know that that person is gone and there is no threat. Also, it's so common that people don't think anything of it. But murder is alien to them, and since it's alien people don't know what to do so it causes havoc.
ReplyDeleteI think it is fine that Montag killed Beatty. Beatty had it coming, it was only a matter of time before some book-loving people came and killed him because he burns books. I don't think it should bother Montag that much.
ReplyDeleteI think that Beatty probably became a fireman to get away from all the knowledge. He possibly felt guilty for reading all those books and decided instead of being against the law he would be the law. This way he could get rid of his guilt, which as the inner circle said was not a feeling the government wanted to enforce.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with reheana when she said that Montag's world flipped upside down when Clarisse came into his life. I think that his world went into turmoil when Clarisse dissapeared. After he found out she was dead, Montag seemed to always be mad.
ReplyDeleteI think Beatty wanted to die, just so he could have a final victory over Montag. It sounds unusual, but I think Beatty may have become obsessed with convincing Montag that books are not the answer. Also, I don't think Montag murdered Beatty because he was desensitized. He never really watched TV, so he did not see violence there, and when Clarisse died, I think it made Montag even more sensitive to violence and death. I think Montag murdered Beatty because he really had nothing to lose; he had lost his house, his wife, his friend Faber, and he was under arrest after he finished destroying his house. Also, he was defending Faber, because he didn't want Beatty to trace the green bullet and arrest him too.
ReplyDeleteCloe- Just because it is preventable doesn't necessarily MEAN it's preventable. Like with the issue with suicide you can talk and talk and talk to that person all you want, but that doesn't guarantee that you've convinced that person not to kill themselves.
ReplyDelete@Cloe-I agree with you. If someone is determined to kill themselves, they will do it. But I also believe that if I am invited to help someone who indicates they are contemplating suicide, I would (hopefully) be able to prevent it.
ReplyDeleteMontag will never be happy. He will always be searching for something more. He has become a political activist, and those never rest until the world is exactly the way they think it should be. Alice Paul, a womens' sufferiget, won women the right to vote. That did not satisfy her: she continued working in politics for women until she died in the 1970's.
ReplyDeleteIts ironic how Beatty said, "If you have a problem, don't face it, burn it." Beatty was Montag's problem. . . so he burnt them. At first Montag is facinated by fire and a typical fireman, then he fears fire when he sees what it does to people an their books, then Montag finally sees fire as a weapon.
ReplyDelete@Corbin-I completely agree.
ReplyDelete@Peter- Did Cloe and I miss where it said that Montag killed Beatty? When did this happen? What page?
ReplyDeleteCorbin-- Yes, the nation today is constantly at war. We fought two wars within the Cold War: Vietnam and Korea, along with many additional side conflicts. Now that the Cold War is over, there is a brand new threat: Islamo-fascism and terrorism. There will always be something more to fight. This war may not even end before the next one begins at this rate.
ReplyDeleteI think that with Kai's comment I agree that it's ironic, but I don't think it's that much so as the book progresses, because Montag changes his views on what he really thinks about fire.
ReplyDelete@Joe-I do not think that Alice Paul was not satisfied, I think she enjoyed working for women's suffrage. I also think that Montag will be happy, because if he can think freely he will enjoy it, though he might not get to the ultimate destination of his thinking, whatever that is.
ReplyDelete@Corbin-- Suicide prevention works.My mom is a social worker and I have learned tt is not just talking, the people you meet with are trained professionals, they present ways to treat the suicidal thoughts. It is not just come in, sit on the couch, and tell me how that makes you feel.
ReplyDelete@abby--119
ReplyDeleteI think that Beatty was not trying to commit suicide. I believe that he was trying to egg on Montag so that Montag would do something rash, but not kill him. He was conspiring against Montag to get him in trouble but not anger him enough to commit murder
ReplyDeleteJoe- I agree with you that our nation today is constantly at war, but only to some extent. Back in the 1920's the U.S. as well as many other countries signed various peace treaties to prevent war, and it worked for a while. The only question I still have for you is how is the war going on today relevant to whats going on in the book, and what does that war have to do with anything?
ReplyDeleteI like what Kai said... In this society, people are afraid to face their problems. I honestly don't think that they are stable enough or mentally capable of solving their issues. So they find ways to get rid of them like burning them, sleeping pills, palor walls, whatever you need to somewhat distract yourself. In our society, we turn to similar things, drugs, alcohol, sex, technology. It's sad. We need to find ways to face our problems and get through them.
ReplyDelete@Joe-I agree with you that we will always be at war. Weather it's a nation wide war, or possibly a war within oursleves, there's no where to run.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Kai, I don't think Montag sees fire as a weapon, he sees it as a method of destroying things. It is there to erase information, get rid of knowledge. However, now that Montag values knowledge, he sees fire as a bad thing, he sees it as a tool.
ReplyDeleteJohn Michael-- Alice Paul worked for womens' rights because she was driven to make the world a better place. Sure, she did enjoy her successes, but she never stopped and was satisfied with the ones she had already accomplished.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Joe, because from what I have seen, Montag is one of those people that just can't get enough and be happy. In the begging he had everyhing, and he wasn't happy. He had books, but he wasn't happy. He had FAber, but he wasn't happy. He's now killed Beaty, but still isn't happy. What extent will he go to, to be happy?
ReplyDelete@Spencer-If Beatty was not trying to get Montag to kill him, what was he trying to get him to do? What other "rash" thing would he do with a flamethrower?
ReplyDeleteGoing off of what Emma in the inner circle said about what impact would have been made if clarisse had not dissapeared, I think it would have turned out similar but not te same or totally different. I believe Montag would have continued reading and collecting books. I do not believe though, that it would have ended in the killing of Beatty.
ReplyDeletePeter- I understand that, but I'm still not convinced that that method works. I mean, if you were having suicidal thoughts would you just want to talk about it? Personally I would want to find a way to blow off some steam, along with talking to someone about my problems.
ReplyDeleteI think that Clarisse symbolizes the rising action, then the lady symbolizes the climax, and killiing Beatty symbolizes the resolution.
ReplyDeleteJoe-Happiness is a journey, not a destination.
ReplyDeleteI believe what real triggered Montag's change was when he first meet Clarisse, because before that he never questioned or thought about the stystem.
ReplyDeleteMaria- I think the woman in the house was the real turning point for Montag. Clarisse was pushing him toward it, but the older lady's motivation for her books really changed him. I think him killing Beatty was just part of his new self.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Peter- I think that Clarisse played a huge part in stimulating Montag's thinking about how the whole system and society that he lives in is completely corrupted.
ReplyDelete@Amanda--But the book isn't over.
ReplyDeleteJoe and JM-- Enough
ReplyDelete@Peter- There is a difference thoug between depression and suicidal. I do not think that a suicidal person would willingly go to a social worker. Not even a depressed person. It would have to be by force. I think that a depressed person can be helped, but a suicidal person needs more then a "trained professional".
ReplyDeletePeople who are truly suicidal don't usually want to open up about their feelings or reach out. Depression is a very complexed state for the person in that state and everyone around them.
ReplyDelete@Corbin- so are you saying that suicide thoughts and anger management go together?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Emma. She said that the lady really pushed him to look at books. He saw that she would die for her books, so Montag's curiostiy about books grew and he wanted to try it. The real question is that I have been asking. Did Montag really want to read the books? Or was he just carrying on the "defyinitng the system" act that the lady did when she died?
ReplyDeleteI think Clarisse was the open door for Montag to actually realize the faults of the government and their society. He was intrigued by her, but didn't actually start to question the government and books to a great extent until the woman commited suicide with her books. This helped Montag realize that there is something more in the world, and actually took action to find Faber and reprint the books.
ReplyDelete@Corbin-- those methods that I mentioned are healthy, constructive ways to blow off some steam, not just to blow your brians out or go to sleep forever.
ReplyDeleteAmanda- Sort of. Emotions can have a lot to do with how you feel about life, so in a sense, yes I think it does.
ReplyDelete@cloe- THANK YOU! depressed and suicidal people are not usually willinf to open up.
ReplyDelete@Amanda- I believe they kind of go hand in hand. If someone were to have serious anger management problems, it could push them over the edge.
ReplyDelete@Cloe-So it sounds like you think that all people who have considered suicidal are helpless and people shouldn't try to stop them or help them because they cannot be helped. Do you really think that?
ReplyDelete@Corbin- but suicide is sadness, not anger.
ReplyDeletePeter- Ok I see your point.
ReplyDeleteCorbin-- You mentioned the Versilles Peace Agreement after WWI, right? It worked for 10 years. There were still wars being faught in Asia and the Pacific. WWII broke out because this peace treaty failed as it put the desires of selfishness over actually settling anything. Bradbury mentions how there are always jets flying overhead and the sound of gunfire way up in the sky. Bradbury predicted that the big nation that is the US will always be at war and this war will be very far removed from the actual people. Do you feel close, or even affected by the Iraq war? Are you buying Liberty Bonds and growing Vicory Gardens like they did in his day?
ReplyDeleteUp towards the middle. Peter said that Beaty and it coming. I totally agree. You can't burn books, and be push people around forver. Karma did him in, and it was only a metter of time before he was killed.
ReplyDelete@Amanda-Suicide can be any emotion. Anger and sadness.
ReplyDeleteAmanda- Not necessarily. It could be both, depending on the person's situation.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Montag made a good decision in showing the books to the women. Even if it did make an impression on them, they are just like Mildred, and they will not act on it, because they are satisfied with their current lives, and they do not want to change anything because of the risk of their unhappiness.
ReplyDelete@RChamber--Yes, but they usually give indicators and if you are trained to look for these indicators, you can figure out if they are suicidal or depressed.
ReplyDelete@Amanda- Suicide isn't only sadness there could be a lot of reasons for suicide. Anger, contempt, sadness, guilt.
ReplyDeleteI think that Fabor is using Montag, because while he sits safely behind enemy lines, so to speak, he is sending Montag out to do all the dirty work to expose the fireman.
ReplyDeleteKatie-- I agree, but I don't think it was Karma's doing. Any opressed people will rise up against the opressor, as seen over and over throughout history.
ReplyDelete@mmoritz- No!!! I think that they can be helped but i believe that the only person that can help them is themselves. I also think that people should comfort them, but some people don't know what to do or what to say, so they make it worse. Most people say stuff like "think about your family" giving a suicidal person the guilt trip isn't the best choice.
ReplyDelete@rchambers- I agree. Suicide really can be any emotion.
ReplyDelete@Cloe-- a person usualy seeks help for other problems (PTSD, depresion, Biopolar,etc) before the reach a suicidal state. The trained profesionals stop suicide before it become an issue. Plans are put into place, to help reconize and counter suidial thoughts and or actions.
ReplyDelete@ JM Maybe it didn't have to be with the flamethrower. Maybe he would (before he was discovered with the books)plant books in Beatty's house and have Beatty arrested.
ReplyDelete@Mmortiz. I agree:) also, on your earlier comment to Cloe, i do believe that anyone who is suicidal is not beyond the point of return. There is always help and hope fo them- they just have to be willing to accept it.
ReplyDelete@Cloe-I agree with you. But I also disagree with you. :)
ReplyDelete@mmoritz- Fair enough :)
ReplyDeleteSuicidal people are in their own world. others don't understand, and sometimes that can make things worse.
ReplyDelete@Spencer-He could not have done that because he would have been in jail. Also, why would Beatty want books planted in his house? If he was not tring to kill himself, then you are implying he is just trying to punish himslef, and that would be a lot easier to do if he did not use Montag to do it; he could have found a way to do it himself.
ReplyDeleteJoe- No I am not, but I don't agree with you when you say that the plans flying overhead in the book represents America being at war all the time. You specifically said that the Treaty of Versaille worked for 10 years, so isn't that a period of time where the U.S. was NOT at war? And I wasn't talking about other nations I was just focusing on America personally, because it would be stupid for me to say that there won't ever be wars throughout the war. My point is that in the book just because there are war planes flying over the suburban area doesn't necessarily mean that the U.S is always at war. It could be just at that time that they were engaged in combat.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Troy when he said that hurt can build people up. It seems like when people get hurt, it just makes them want to do more to overcome the pain that was inflicted upon them.
ReplyDeleteI think that Montag believed that Captian Beatty wanted to died as an excuse for his actions.
ReplyDeleteFinal thoughts? Shut down
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Beaty commited suicide, I think that he did just give up and not wnat to fight anymore. @Casey- I do think that Beaty was in Montag's position. He knew so much, and kind of knew Montag's position. He just knew when enough was enough to keep everyone safe unlike Montag
ReplyDelete@Kai Bin-If Montag was using Beatty wanting to die as an excuse for his actions, why did he fall, almost paralyzed, at the thought? It seemed more like he was unhappy with the fact that Beatty wanted to die.
ReplyDeleteCorbin-- Okay that makes sense. But in the modern age, you have to admit that wars or at least conflicts are more frequent. They're getting more fequent and closer together, no?
ReplyDelete@ JM I was saying that before Mildren called the fireman like days before. Montag would have planted the books in Beattys house to remove the threat. Much like Macbeth.
ReplyDelete