Montag and Mildred don not even know each other anymore. The society is selfish, as demonstrated by Mildred. She even protested Montag taking a sick day and encourages him to save up money in order to buy the fourth third wall. They can't even remember where they met.
I don't think that Guy and Mildred ever really connected or liked each other. I agree with Joe's thinking in that they just found someone to marry whether or not they like each other. Clarisse and Guy have a better connection than he and is wife do.
I think that the bedroom scene shows that relationships don't become very intimate, they just live their seprate lives with an occasional overlap between their two lives.
I agree with Macy, Montag and Mildred don't show a lot of affection. I don't think they're together because they have to be, i think they chose to be together. With that said, i don't think they are by any means in love. I think they say they are, because they think they are. They don't know what love is or what it feels like, so how can they say they're not in love? To them, Marrige= love. That's the attitude of society in Fahrenheit 451.
I don't think that Mildred isn't completely commited to her husband, because when Montag asked her to turn off the tv she just went and turned it down instead.
I think this scence represents how their relationship is more mandatory than voluntary, and they are only together because of routine and it's what they have to do. They don't have any emotional connection or will to be involved in eachother's everyday lives.
I think that Mildred values the company of her wall parlor "family" more than the company of Montag. When Montag comes to this realization, he starts to cry because he would have no feelings if Mildred acually did die from an overdoes. Now that Montag is starting to question society and the system, he feels very emotional and it almost makes him crazy.
I think this shows something significant about their society. Most emotions are diminished and people are too busy to take the time to think of each other. Sensitivity is valued so much less between couples and people are dragged into the pleasure of modern-day technology. Loving someone is merely an idea lost in the past.
The relationship between Mildred and Montag represent their society. The "bedroom" scene was the first affection/ care that is shown between Mildred and Montag, but even in this scene, there is still bitterness.
I think Mildred is just too far over the edge to come back to reality. All she does is watch TV all day, and forget things like how many sleeping pills she's taken. Society changed in this way, that couples no longer love each other but stay toether for practical reasons, like having children.
During this future, it is clear that people do not really get to know each other like Joe said. They got along so they got married but they do not really know each other in that deep aspect. They just know the superficial and scratch the surface of their past. It is kind of the way of life that you marry, they are told love is this when they can deal with each other, but when Montag actually tries to talk deeply they do not really connect. Maybe later on in the book Mildred will loosen up and they will turn out to love each other but she will have to change for this to come true, so only time will tell about their relationship.
I'm not exactly sure if Montag and Mildred even love eachother. It seems like Mildred doesn't even care that Montag is sick. It's almost as if they don't feel love, they just know they are supposed to be together. Clarisse was acting like more of a wife to Montag than Mildred ever was, and Mildred was acting like a teenage girl with her "seashells" in her ears constantly. Almost like Mildred doesn't respect Montag even though he goes to work and pays for her walls that she wants.
This shows how people are maried but sometimes it is out of neccesity, not love, like their relationship. It is sad. They are togeather but, they don't even remember there first meeting! If love was present they would care for each other. Guy would be concered for Mildred when she over dosed and she would be concerned for him when he was sick.
I disagree that they never had a connection because they got married. However, when Montag met Clarisse, he changed and began questioning their marriage, and that is when their connection began to deteriorate.
I also believe that both Mildred and Montag think that they are in love, and have a will to be in love, but the fact that neither of them remember how they met shows how their commitment towards eachother is weak.
I agree with Emily. I don't think the government forces marriage at all. I just think that it is what is socially expected of two people. Feelings and emotions are left out of the equasion.
People go along with the false front of marriage as love, but love doesn't really mean anything, and it is every man for himself, not a couple working for each other.
Now-a-days, there is almost no time to find a real relationship, like Joe said. It's kind of a moral thing, to get together and stay for a while, and ten move on to someone new. Feelings are almost left out completely when this happens, its just the right thing to do to satisfy family or friends, or themselves.
In society today, if a couple had a relationship like Montag and Mildred, they would probably get a divorce. And I think that is a sad reality, because nowadays couples want to just put and "end" to their problems instead of trying to work them out.
I agree with Joe, because in present day, marriage is not what it used to be. There are divorces and familys that are broken apart. In Mildred and Montag's case, there is no family at all.
I agree with Joe that now people see a spouse as a next step but not as someone they love. 451's world is based on empty happiness and that is exactly what the relationships are.
Do you think that in this day and age, some couples stay in a loveless relationship because they don't want to admit that they failed at marriage? They don't want to let down their kids--so they just stay? Or do you think people just jump on divorce as the only option out.
I think Montag is picking up the character qualities of Clarisse. In their society not many people (I assume) would ask their spouse where they met because they just don't care. They have corrupted their mind so much with technology that their knowledge erases memories of the past.
I wonder if Bradbury thought of divorces. Since it seems like Mildred and Montag don't love eachother anymore, will they get a divorce. Or will they stay together because it's the law?
Divorce did exist. It wasn't so much of a social norm, but people did get divorces. Also this book is set in the future so divorces should be just as much of a common place in their society.
Before Montag met Clarisse, he wished he was in love with his wife, like how things are supposed to be. When Clarisse rubed the dandelion on his chin, Montag started to question his love. . . until he realized there was NO love.
I agree with Joe, Divorce is common today. I think that if divorce was common in his time, he would have let the couple be divorced but Bradbury is implying that they are completely separate. The live separate lives, Mildred is consumed by her TV and "Seashells" while Montag spends his day thinking about society, they don't even share the same bed, their beds are on opposite sides of the room...
I agree with Cassie. The front porch part of this section is significant because people don't take the time to relax and talk to each other about their lives. Couples pass by each other like they don't know each other.
I think that the numerous distractions in this time have made Mildred less aware of the real world around her and more concerned with her "relatives" in the parlor. This probably contributed to the weak relationship between Montag and Mildred. I believe in this society, Mildred and Montag married becuase they felt they needed to be married and have a relationship because it was the normal thing to do.
I think that what Mrs. Moritz said is true. I can relate from personal experience with my family that men and woman don't have the same bond and connection between each other that a man and a wife used to have in a marriage, and that saddens me greatly because then the word love doesn't really mean anything anymore.
To be alone and divorced would almost be the same as being married. The life pattern of Mildred would be the same, maybe more sleeping pills because of the idea of being alone. Although she would still have her relatives and isnt that what her daily routine is really based off of? Montag is rarely let into her life routine so in a sense marriage in this time is to complete the idea of being married, and to fill the epty void and lonliness people have. The idea fills this void, but it ia just a facade, and deep down they are really lonily and Montag is beginning to figure this out.
I don not think that people will stay in a loveless marriage because our society is more open to divorce. Especially today, people enter relationships just to have one, not really to make it a long-lasting relationship. Then they get married to quickly and take divorce as an easy way out.
I don't think that Mildred and Montag had the choice to get married, so therefore i don't think they really love each other and i don't think they are commited to each other.
I think some people aren't always in love with their spouse, but rather the idea of having a spouse at all. By not getting married or being in a relationship, some people would feel as though they have failed themselves or their families. I am positive that there are many people sort of stuck in loveless relationships because of their children or other factors. Many relationships appear genuine and perfect, but if you get beyond the plastic smiles, there is not always that connection that relationships need to thrive.
To contradict the discussors, as the readers we do not know what their history was, there is no information or hints really as to how they came to be married etc.
Along with what Rheanna said, I think that there is a free decision on who you marry, but the government controls how people act so choosing who you marry doesn't really matter, there are only small differences in people.
Some people stick it out for the kids, with no love or happiness and they stay. Some people us divorce as an escape hatch. It is useful to them from their perspective. They can try it out (the marriage) and if it works great, and if it doesn't work it's okay, just divorce out of it. That iswrong. The morals of socitey are lost and traditional marragie slips away.
I think that Mildred and Montag could be in a forced marraige because it seems like they don't really like eachother. Perhaps Mildred just needed a guy that had a good job and could provide what ever she wanted. Then gradually they started to like eachother, but still don't love eachother.
I think it is interesting how Montag saw Mildred when he was sick. He described her as a thin praying mantis with "white bacon" flesh and brittle straw-like hair.
The only TRUE conversation we have seen right now is at the very end of the section when Montag opens himself to her and pleads for her help. I wonder how Mildred will respond to this. Will this help their relationship or hurt it even more?
Montag is picking up some things from his wife's attitude towards him, from Clarisse, and from Captain Beatty. Mildred is only staying with him because she doesn’t want to lose the steady flow of income that funds her extravagant technology wants. She said that the parlor walls cost each $2000, which is a year’s pay for Montag. Mildred follows the govt. standards word for word, being the brain-washed, wasted woman she is. Montag seems more curious as to what books hold, what they have to show the world.
I think that rheana is right. The government would pair them together because mildred would keep him under control. Just like in harrison bergeon with harrison's parents. The government didnt count for clarisse coming into the pictur, because she will offset mildred's control.
I agree with Abby about the firemen having curiosity. I also wonder if any of the other firemen have secretly taken home a book...? Is Beatty smuggling books? If so, who would catch him?
The government does control the actions, jobs, and feelings of the society. Intellectuals are not able to express their ideas, forced into jobs that perhaps hinder their thinking. Both Beaty and Montag are both facinated by the books they burn, each wondering what's inside them. They might possibly have been place into this job exactly for their love of the unknown, and are now forced to destroy it.
I think that it is fair that fireman get a book for 24 hours because their job is based around books. It is why they wake up everyday, and go to work... to burn books. They have the right to know what and why they are completing this job day after day. Giving the right to everyone, would create out of hand situations and cover ups for law breakers.
@Maria--Yes, but marriage changes over time. Regardless of different people who come into our lives, as individuals we change and we have to adapt to those changes. Has Montag and Mildred adapted to the changes in one another?
Going along with Eric's comment, I'm also wondering if the government gave the fireman special privilages, specifically Beatty, to keep books and actually absorb the information that they contain?
As Maria said they had a reasonable marriage until he met Clarisse because Clarisse symbolizes thinking. Its the first time Montage has ever thought freely.
I dont see what the government would get from giving special book rights to firemen. They could learn "dangerous" ideas that could lead them away from the frame of society.
Maria- using what Mrs. Mathay said to us last year when we studied this before, what do you think Mildred's attitude towards other people in person would be? I mean she almost never talks to them, face to face. Only on her parlor walls.
I don't think the government allows firemen to obtain books out of generosity, but because they can't stop it. Instead regulations are put around how long they can have the books etc.
I don't believe the citizens are allowed 24 hours to quench their curiosity because firemen NEED to start fires, and they would jump on any chance to do so.
If I was a firefighter, I would want to take a book out of curiosity. I would want to know what was so bad about the books. Why am I burning them? Then once I had seen one book, I might like it and want to read more.
I wonder if any of the authors of the books are still alive? Because with like what Rianna said a person has to sit down and think and put those words on to paper.
Mildred has not adapted to Montag's new attitude towards life. She continues to go about her own shallow life; Montag, on the other hand, begins to question their relationship and their society because of Clarisse, and doesn't adapt to Mildred's unchanged views.
Depends on the firemen. Most of the firemen are the ones who play with the mechanical hound, those firemen do not abuse the power to read books. The firemen that see that the hound is wrong are the ones who abuse there power.
When people get married it isn't a perfect relationship. There will be flaws and rocky patches, so over time, the people in the marriage adapt over time to each other. They have adapted to much to each other and has caused them to no longer love each other.
Corbin, the authors were probably hunted down and dead unless they stayed aonymous. Writing a book is worse then reading one, because so much more thought is required and that amount of thought is illegal.
Bradbury foreshadowed us not reading books. I believe this is beacuse we don't like to read because its inconvient. Why would we read if we could sparknote it? Why would we have to read stories if there are movies made from them?
I agree with Joe, I think that the media has had a big influence on the decreased number of people reading books, because like Cloe said why would I read a book if I could just go online and get the same information?
The government doesn't seem to care that books are being read, but that the meaningful information is being released and offending minorities is just a cover up.
In light of what the inner circle is talking about--have we pushed out own literature away? We are ultimately responsible for the fireman and his job. I think that is why Bradbury wrote this book- to show us what will happen if we push our books and magazines and printed works away.
@Kate E.- Great point. I agree with you. Firemen deserve to know what is behind the covers of these book. An important aspect to this topic is the woman who killed herself. She died for her books, and Montag realized that there was something more with these books. He deserves the right to feed this curiousity after such a monumental event... But I wonder if any other of the firemen did the same as Montag...?
society might have chosen to burn books because they wernt good enough entertainment like Katie said. THey also would want to be happy in their twisted world and wouldnt want to see true happiness because it would take the mask of happiness away.
The younger genereation has become more adapted to the new technolgy. While older people may still use printed recources, the younger generation has no experience with these materials and haven't been taught to use them. Technology is what we've grown up with, and what we're used to.
Spencer- Good point. Going back to what I said earlier people today just perfer to get information from the Internet rather than picking up a book and reading it.
Michael- I agree with you. This is also the cover-up that Beatty used with Montag in order to answer his questions concerning the past. However, Beatty should have been more truthful to Montag about the real reasons why the government banned books.
I strongly agree with John Michael, Ray Bradbury got a lot of things right about our future so fara, but he left out a HUGE part of our everyday lives. The internet! It is such a big part of our lives and if he knew about this when he wrote this, it would probably have changed a lot of the content of this book.
I agree with Joe on that Guy is afraid of information being gone, not books. He wants information to stick around, if books fall by the wayside, so be it.
I think it's true, that every piece of literature will always offend someone, somewhere. But if we take away writings and such, just to avoid offending different people, it's taking away our freedoms of freedom and press.
Obviously people of this day(in Fahrenheit 451) seem insensitive, but some sensitivity was obviously left because of what Beatty said. The blacks were offended by "Little Black Sambo", whites by "Uncle Tom's Cabin", so obviously they were sensitive enough to these racially-insulting books that they were burned. This shows that not every value has disappeared with the rapid change of the world and people still have sensitivity.
I agree with Katie. If most of the people in this book don't really think, then why would they have the internet? Plus the internet has stuff that would make certain people mad, so like books, they would have to get rid of it.
Like Joe said, Bradbury didn't predict the internet. But this doesn't mean that the internet is bad or should be banned. The internet doesn't mean that the information is gone, it just means that the information is in a different medium. The internet can be censored too, like in china and north korea.
I think that John Michael is right about Ray Bradbury mising the internet, but if they were able to destroy and censor all books, wouldn't they be able to destroy computers?
Joe- i agree. There is no need for such communication, because there is nothing to communicate. There are no ideas, stories or even thoughts to discuss with one another.
The printed words can be very offensive in one way or another, depending on a person's views on a specific subject. To different types of people, the internet is better at getting the information around. I do not know a single person who doesn't have a computer. But I do know many people who don't have the books they would need to do research. But since the internet is readily available, they don't feel the need to have those books.
Joe brings up a good point, we are stuck in our bubble of Centennial Colorado, but we dont think of the make up of the rest of the world who cant afford computers and even shoes! We have life good here, and when our focus for hours is facebook, other teenager's focus is food and supporting their siblings. I think we need to pop the bubble and think of the bigger picture. The entire world.
"If you don't want a man unhappy politically,don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the government is inefficient, topheavy, and tax-mad, better it be all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag"
1984 is exactly like this instead of destroying the information they just falsify it. Also as Joe previously said that the internet is not a step towards the 451's world were we don't have books. Before books it was human word. It doesn't matter what form its on it matters that its there. On the wiping it out memories change, its like the telephone game the word will change.
I completely agree with Kate. We are very self-absorbed for the most part. We are lucky to live in our world. What relationship does our world have with Montag's?
If the internet ceased to exit, I think conversation would be less bland and uninteresting. Questions would become more prevelent, and ideas would be more based on life rather than random facts.
@mmoritz- Most Americans (and others around the world) rely on the internet and, for even some, base their life solely around the internet. If it disappeared, we would always use books and television and we couldn't fulfill the instant-gratification need that we desire today. We would research in encyclopedias and actually have to read novels for school (no sparknotes). With the internet lost, I think some things will be gained, but others lost. We would gain knowledge to navigate books and volumes, but lost fast fulfillment.
If the internet was closed like would change but humans would adapt. We'd go back to before the internet. Humans adapt to a situation, Just like the 451's people have adapted to there lives.
I do not think that it would affect me drastically if the internet was shut down because I really only use it for the occasional youtube video and information for school research. If texting ceased to exist, I would call people a whole lot more. It would be inconvenient to have to call all of my teammates instead of sending out a mass text, but overall I would be able to deal with that because I am not an obsessive texter.
Right now, in our society we are so fortunate and dependent on our technology that when things are not working, even for a few minutes. . . we don't know what to do. The way we live is very fortunate compared to other countries that don't even have electricity. These people find other forms to communicate and find information. We get upset if the internet isn't working or if our phone has no signal. People who don't have these luxuries are not dependent on it.
If the internet shut down, we would have to restart our society. Most of our information and contact with the world is through the internet. We would have to regather or rewrite new information and materials. It would greatly affect our society and the younger generation would have to relearn. If texting ceased to exist, I think it would be less of an impact. People would still be able to call, but less people would actually put in the effort of actually calling a person, after being so used to easy contact.
No texting would be a problem. We would see a new medical condition, texting thumb syndrome: thumbs twitching wildly, as if they were textig on a phone keyborad. And teenagers would lose their vital communication link with their friends and family.
Our world depends on internet and electronic communication. It's pretty much the only communication at all that we have with far away places, and even near by places! Without it, our world (or at least America) would turn into chaos.
I think that people would go back to writing letters and talking on the telephone instead of just texting and emailing. Maybe people would just talk more. The post office would be a lot busier and I think people would be nicer. A lot of people are so mean online but not to that person's face so that shows that they don't have the courage to say something mean to someone. This way people will be nicer to eachother and online bullying will cease.
If the internet was shut down and texting ceased, it would "end" some teenagers lives through facebook. These technologies are how we, as middle class teenagers connect with one another. After time everybody would cope and go back to the old customs of sending letters instead of emails, talking on the phone instead of texting, having to draw instead of print pictures from google, and actually having to think deeply about answers instead of googling or binging the answer to everyting. Teenagers would be upset and learn new ways.
I think that in farenheit 451 the government, while part of the problem is not the antagonist of the story. The problem with the society in the book and our society. People nowdays are so easily offended and want everything to be so friendly and bland so that no one is offended. I think that in a society with thinkers, inventors and people with open imaginations, people will be offended by others. This is not to say that people should be persecuted for their differences, but that we should not be so concerned with it that we destroy all intelligence and free thought in order to establish a friendly atmosphere for life.
Mrs. Moritz- I think that our current generation would be pissed. Technology is a major part of our lives, a large part of the population depends on technology to access information. However, my mom, while she was in school used to have to look up information in encyclopedias and the library, now there is no use because of this new technology. Future generations probably wouldn't care because it's what they know, they don't know anything different. What effect does technology have on our world? Is it good or bad?
I disagree, we think we depend on the internet but we don't. People lived before the internet it is possible. Humans adapt and if the internet was closed we wouldn't die we would change.
In this society, no one is really happy, though. In today's society, I do not believe that the average citizen is truly, deeply happy because we depend on worldly possessions to make us content, but not permanently happy.
It's Beatty's JOB to dislike intellectuals and those who question, but now what he wants. That is why his large lecture contradicts itself. He is trying to convince Montag that burning is good and clean, but he also says that we are destoying our past.
Do you think, since Beatty is apparently so interested in books, that he has a book or two? Maybe Montag isn't the only one that has taken a book on the job . . .
I'm here because it makes me happy, not necessary school but being able to think. I live to be happy, going to a good college having a good job that will lead to happiness.
I think they government in Fahrenheit 451 I think that it relates to our school life a lot, in the sense that we have people above us making decisions for us, just like the goverment is doing in the book.
@Emily--Technology has good effects on our socitey. We use it in our everyday lives. Look at the LPS Google Apps program here at AHS. Most of my teachers use it and I must us it everday to stay up in my classes.
Going off of what Maria said, not only do we not have deep happiness, we look for immediate happiness to acheive a higher level of immediate happiness, a bigger house, more money, less work. We try to improve our immediate happiness, not achieve a deeper happiness.
@Everyone--I appreciate that you are thinking about your future and preparing for AP courses so that you can ultimately gain college credit while in high school; however, I truly believe--for most of you--if you were in a regular level English class you would be bored...you wouldn't be challenged...and you would come crying to me beggin to be in my awesome HONORS class!!!!!
Emma- Beatty knows a lot more than the average fireman should for a person who burns books and knowledge. i think he has read books and probably owned a few.
I agree, Mrs. Moritz. I think that sometimes even if we should be in higher level classes, we would rather be lazy and not work as hard. Being in a regular english class would be a 'better' work load, but it wouldn't help us live up to our full potential. Challenging ourselves is what helps us make progress.
You're goal in life is to not just be happy because life is more than just happiness but a series of emotions and a perfect world with perfect lives is not really happiness. Life has to be lived with it's obstacles for us to be able to live. Not just exist.
:) I agree Mrs. Moritz. We challenge ourselves everyday. To me, learning and happiness go together because we have that right and that freedom. There are places in the world that don't have these freedoms and we often take advantage of it...
The concept of "happy" has really evolved over time. Mildred is happy watching television all day, and Beatty is happy burning books. Now, we find happiness in star-gazing, or sitting down to dinner with our families and talking about our day.
The music we listen to, the tv shows we watch, our religion, and the clothes we wear are not what defines us. These are the things that create a superficial existence. It is the ideas that we create and what we do to bring those to reality that defines us as people.
The balance is what works, but in F451 they have no balance. There is too much govt. because they continue to restrict access to certain materials. Books, and maybe other things.
Good point Eric, and "happy" also has different meanings to each person, I love to camp and look at the stars or walk in the rain but I am sure that some other people hate to camp or think its boring to sit down and look and the stars. Not only has "happy" evolved over time, it also is completely different between people and "happy" is a hard term to really wrap your head around.
I think that the bedroom scene shows that Montag and Mildred don't really have a connection with each other that a usual married couple would have.
ReplyDeleteThe scene shows how the relationship is empty and loveless. There is no human emotion in there life just mindless actions.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Joe I think they want to be together, but they just don't have the connection that they need to have to have a healthy relationship.
ReplyDeleteMontag and Mildred don not even know each other anymore. The society is selfish, as demonstrated by Mildred. She even protested Montag taking a sick day and encourages him to save up money in order to buy the fourth third wall. They can't even remember where they met.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Guy and Mildred ever really connected or liked each other. I agree with Joe's thinking in that they just found someone to marry whether or not they like each other. Clarisse and Guy have a better connection than he and is wife do.
ReplyDeleteI think that the bedroom scene shows that relationships don't become very intimate, they just live their seprate lives with an occasional overlap between their two lives.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Macy, Montag and Mildred don't show a lot of affection. I don't think they're together because they have to be, i think they chose to be together. With that said, i don't think they are by any means in love. I think they say they are, because they think they are. They don't know what love is or what it feels like, so how can they say they're not in love? To them, Marrige= love. That's the attitude of society in Fahrenheit 451.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Mildred isn't completely commited to her husband, because when Montag asked her to turn off the tv she just went and turned it down instead.
ReplyDeleteI think this scence represents how their relationship is more mandatory than voluntary, and they are only together because of routine and it's what they have to do. They don't have any emotional connection or will to be involved in eachother's everyday lives.
ReplyDeleteI think that Mildred values the company of her wall parlor "family" more than the company of Montag. When Montag comes to this realization, he starts to cry because he would have no feelings if Mildred acually did die from an overdoes. Now that Montag is starting to question society and the system, he feels very emotional and it almost makes him crazy.
ReplyDeleteI think this shows something significant about their society. Most emotions are diminished and people are too busy to take the time to think of each other. Sensitivity is valued so much less between couples and people are dragged into the pleasure of modern-day technology. Loving someone is merely an idea lost in the past.
ReplyDeleteI don't think the government forces marriage...
ReplyDeleteThe relationship between Mildred and Montag represent their society. The "bedroom" scene was the first affection/ care that is shown between Mildred and Montag, but even in this scene, there is still bitterness.
I think Mildred is just too far over the edge to come back to reality. All she does is watch TV all day, and forget things like how many sleeping pills she's taken. Society changed in this way, that couples no longer love each other but stay toether for practical reasons, like having children.
ReplyDeleteDuring this future, it is clear that people do not really get to know each other like Joe said. They got along so they got married but they do not really know each other in that deep aspect. They just know the superficial and scratch the surface of their past. It is kind of the way of life that you marry, they are told love is this when they can deal with each other, but when Montag actually tries to talk deeply they do not really connect. Maybe later on in the book Mildred will loosen up and they will turn out to love each other but she will have to change for this to come true, so only time will tell about their relationship.
ReplyDeleteI'm not exactly sure if Montag and Mildred even love eachother. It seems like Mildred doesn't even care that Montag is sick. It's almost as if they don't feel love, they just know they are supposed to be together. Clarisse was acting like more of a wife to Montag than Mildred ever was, and Mildred was acting like a teenage girl with her "seashells" in her ears constantly. Almost like Mildred doesn't respect Montag even though he goes to work and pays for her walls that she wants.
ReplyDeleteI think that Clarisse really opened Montag's eyes to what his marraige is all about, and if he really loves his wife or not.
ReplyDeleteThis shows how people are maried but sometimes it is out of neccesity, not love, like their relationship. It is sad. They are togeather but, they don't even remember there first meeting! If love was present they would care for each other. Guy would be concered for Mildred when she over dosed and she would be concerned for him when he was sick.
ReplyDeleteHow can they know if they love each other or not if they dont know what love feels like, because society has never showed them?
ReplyDeleteI disagree that they never had a connection because they got married. However, when Montag met Clarisse, he changed and began questioning their marriage, and that is when their connection began to deteriorate.
ReplyDeleteI also believe that both Mildred and Montag think that they are in love, and have a will to be in love, but the fact that neither of them remember how they met shows how their commitment towards eachother is weak.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Emily. I don't think the government forces marriage at all. I just think that it is what is socially expected of two people. Feelings and emotions are left out of the equasion.
ReplyDeletePeople go along with the false front of marriage as love, but love doesn't really mean anything, and it is every man for himself, not a couple working for each other.
ReplyDeleteNow-a-days, there is almost no time to find a real relationship, like Joe said. It's kind of a moral thing, to get together and stay for a while, and ten move on to someone new. Feelings are almost left out completely when this happens, its just the right thing to do to satisfy family or friends, or themselves.
ReplyDeleteIn society today, if a couple had a relationship like Montag and Mildred, they would probably get a divorce. And I think that is a sad reality, because nowadays couples want to just put and "end" to their problems instead of trying to work them out.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Joe, because in present day, marriage is not what it used to be. There are divorces and familys that are broken apart. In Mildred and Montag's case, there is no family at all.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Joe that now people see a spouse as a next step but not as someone they love. 451's world is based on empty happiness and that is exactly what the relationships are.
ReplyDeleteIf the future of marriage is spiraling downward like it is in the story,people will just give up on it all togeather
ReplyDeleteDo you think that in this day and age, some couples stay in a loveless relationship because they don't want to admit that they failed at marriage? They don't want to let down their kids--so they just stay? Or do you think people just jump on divorce as the only option out.
ReplyDeleteI think Montag is picking up the character qualities of Clarisse. In their society not many people (I assume) would ask their spouse where they met because they just don't care. They have corrupted their mind so much with technology that their knowledge erases memories of the past.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Bradbury thought of divorces. Since it seems like Mildred and Montag don't love eachother anymore, will they get a divorce. Or will they stay together because it's the law?
ReplyDeleteDivorce did exist. It wasn't so much of a social norm, but people did get divorces. Also this book is set in the future so divorces should be just as much of a common place in their society.
ReplyDeleteBefore Montag met Clarisse, he wished he was in love with his wife, like how things are supposed to be. When Clarisse rubed the dandelion on his chin, Montag started to question his love. . . until he realized there was NO love.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Joe, Divorce is common today. I think that if divorce was common in his time, he would have let the couple be divorced but Bradbury is implying that they are completely separate. The live separate lives, Mildred is consumed by her TV and "Seashells" while Montag spends his day thinking about society, they don't even share the same bed, their beds are on opposite sides of the room...
ReplyDeleteI think that some people do just live a loveless marriage because of conveniency, not because of love or devotion.
ReplyDeletePeople now a days are lazy, they know there are better options then divorce, but divorce is a easier route then working to fix a relationship.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Cassie. The front porch part of this section is significant because people don't take the time to relax and talk to each other about their lives. Couples pass by each other like they don't know each other.
ReplyDeleteI think that the numerous distractions in this time have made Mildred less aware of the real world around her and more concerned with her "relatives" in the parlor. This probably contributed to the weak relationship between Montag and Mildred.
ReplyDeleteI believe in this society, Mildred and Montag married becuase they felt they needed to be married and have a relationship because it was the normal thing to do.
I think that what Mrs. Moritz said is true. I can relate from personal experience with my family that men and woman don't have the same bond and connection between each other that a man and a wife used to have in a marriage, and that saddens me greatly because then the word love doesn't really mean anything anymore.
ReplyDeleteTo be alone and divorced would almost be the same as being married. The life pattern of Mildred would be the same, maybe more sleeping pills because of the idea of being alone. Although she would still have her relatives and isnt that what her daily routine is really based off of? Montag is rarely let into her life routine so in a sense marriage in this time is to complete the idea of being married, and to fill the epty void and lonliness people have. The idea fills this void, but it ia just a facade, and deep down they are really lonily and Montag is beginning to figure this out.
ReplyDeleteI don not think that people will stay in a loveless marriage because our society is more open to divorce. Especially today, people enter relationships just to have one, not really to make it a long-lasting relationship. Then they get married to quickly and take divorce as an easy way out.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Mildred and Montag had the choice to get married, so therefore i don't think they really love each other and i don't think they are commited to each other.
ReplyDeleteI think some people aren't always in love with their spouse, but rather the idea of having a spouse at all. By not getting married or being in a relationship, some people would feel as though they have failed themselves or their families. I am positive that there are many people sort of stuck in loveless relationships because of their children or other factors. Many relationships appear genuine and perfect, but if you get beyond the plastic smiles, there is not always that connection that relationships need to thrive.
ReplyDeleteTo contradict the discussors, as the readers we do not know what their history was, there is no information or hints really as to how they came to be married etc.
ReplyDeleteAlong with what Rheanna said, I think that there is a free decision on who you marry, but the government controls how people act so choosing who you marry doesn't really matter, there are only small differences in people.
ReplyDeleteSome people stick it out for the kids, with no love or happiness and they stay. Some people us divorce as an escape hatch. It is useful to them from their perspective. They can try it out (the marriage) and if it works great, and if it doesn't work it's okay, just divorce out of it. That iswrong. The morals of socitey are lost and traditional marragie slips away.
ReplyDeleteI think that Mildred and Montag could be in a forced marraige because it seems like they don't really like eachother. Perhaps Mildred just needed a guy that had a good job and could provide what ever she wanted. Then gradually they started to like eachother, but still don't love eachother.
ReplyDeleteI think it is interesting how Montag saw Mildred when he was sick. He described her as a thin praying mantis with "white bacon" flesh and brittle straw-like hair.
ReplyDeleteThe only TRUE conversation we have seen right now is at the very end of the section when Montag opens himself to her and pleads for her help. I wonder how Mildred will respond to this. Will this help their relationship or hurt it even more?
ReplyDeleteMontag is picking up some things from his wife's attitude towards him, from Clarisse, and from Captain Beatty. Mildred is only staying with him because she doesn’t want to lose the steady flow of income that funds her extravagant technology wants. She said that the parlor walls cost each $2000, which is a year’s pay for Montag. Mildred follows the govt. standards word for word, being the brain-washed, wasted woman she is. Montag seems more curious as to what books hold, what they have to show the world.
ReplyDeleteEven if they were forced into a marriage, Montag and Mildred did seem to have a reasonable marriage before Montag met Clarisse.
ReplyDeleteI think that rheana is right. The government would pair them together because mildred would keep him under control. Just like in harrison bergeon with harrison's parents. The government didnt count for clarisse coming into the pictur, because she will offset mildred's control.
ReplyDeleteI think that the way that Captain Beautty knows so much history is because he's kept some of the books that he's been assigned to burn.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Abby about the firemen having curiosity. I also wonder if any of the other firemen have secretly taken home a book...? Is Beatty smuggling books? If so, who would catch him?
ReplyDeleteThe government does control the actions, jobs, and feelings of the society. Intellectuals are not able to express their ideas, forced into jobs that perhaps hinder their thinking. Both Beaty and Montag are both facinated by the books they burn, each wondering what's inside them. They might possibly have been place into this job exactly for their love of the unknown, and are now forced to destroy it.
ReplyDeleteI think that it is fair that fireman get a book for 24 hours because their job is based around books. It is why they wake up everyday, and go to work... to burn books. They have the right to know what and why they are completing this job day after day. Giving the right to everyone, would create out of hand situations and cover ups for law breakers.
ReplyDelete@Maria--Yes, but marriage changes over time. Regardless of different people who come into our lives, as individuals we change and we have to adapt to those changes. Has Montag and Mildred adapted to the changes in one another?
ReplyDeleteGoing along with Eric's comment, I'm also wondering if the government gave the fireman special privilages, specifically Beatty, to keep books and actually absorb the information that they contain?
ReplyDeleteAs Maria said they had a reasonable marriage until he met Clarisse because Clarisse symbolizes thinking. Its the first time Montage has ever thought freely.
ReplyDeleteI dont see what the government would get from giving special book rights to firemen. They could learn "dangerous" ideas that could lead them away from the frame of society.
ReplyDeleteMaria- using what Mrs. Mathay said to us last year when we studied this before, what do you think Mildred's attitude towards other people in person would be? I mean she almost never talks to them, face to face. Only on her parlor walls.
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ReplyDeleteI don't think the government allows firemen to obtain books out of generosity, but because they can't stop it. Instead regulations are put around how long they can have the books etc.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe the citizens are allowed 24 hours to quench their curiosity because firemen NEED to start fires, and they would jump on any chance to do so.
ReplyDeleteIf I was a firefighter, I would want to take a book out of curiosity. I would want to know what was so bad about the books. Why am I burning them? Then once I had seen one book, I might like it and want to read more.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if any of the authors of the books are still alive? Because with like what Rianna said a person has to sit down and think and put those words on to paper.
ReplyDeleteAgreeing with John Michael, since the fireman are inforcing the laws, they need to know why they do what they do.
ReplyDeleteMildred has not adapted to Montag's new attitude towards life. She continues to go about her own shallow life; Montag, on the other hand, begins to question their relationship and their society because of Clarisse, and doesn't adapt to Mildred's unchanged views.
ReplyDeleteDepends on the firemen. Most of the firemen are the ones who play with the mechanical hound, those firemen do not abuse the power to read books. The firemen that see that the hound is wrong are the ones who abuse there power.
ReplyDeleteWhen people get married it isn't a perfect relationship. There will be flaws and rocky patches, so over time, the people in the marriage adapt over time to each other. They have adapted to much to each other and has caused them to no longer love each other.
ReplyDeleteCorbin, the authors were probably hunted down and dead unless they stayed aonymous. Writing a book is worse then reading one, because so much more thought is required and that amount of thought is illegal.
ReplyDeleteI use the encyclopedia!
ReplyDeleteBradbury foreshadowed us not reading books. I believe this is beacuse we don't like to read because its inconvient. Why would we read if we could sparknote it? Why would we have to read stories if there are movies made from them?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Joe, I think that the media has had a big influence on the decreased number of people reading books, because like Cloe said why would I read a book if I could just go online and get the same information?
ReplyDeleteAnd it is a printed one
ReplyDeleteThe government doesn't seem to care that books are being read, but that the meaningful information is being released and offending minorities is just a cover up.
ReplyDeleteIn light of what the inner circle is talking about--have we pushed out own literature away? We are ultimately responsible for the fireman and his job. I think that is why Bradbury wrote this book- to show us what will happen if we push our books and magazines and printed works away.
ReplyDeleteI think that books will always be there, they just might not be used as much or at all.
ReplyDelete@Kate E.- Great point. I agree with you. Firemen deserve to know what is behind the covers of these book. An important aspect to this topic is the woman who killed herself. She died for her books, and Montag realized that there was something more with these books. He deserves the right to feed this curiousity after such a monumental event... But I wonder if any other of the firemen did the same as Montag...?
ReplyDeletesociety might have chosen to burn books because they wernt good enough entertainment like Katie said. THey also would want to be happy in their twisted world and wouldnt want to see true happiness because it would take the mask of happiness away.
ReplyDeleteMaybe race has to deal with the lack of book reading
ReplyDeleteI agree with JM, when something is online it is there forever, and will never leave
ReplyDeleteThe younger genereation has become more adapted to the new technolgy. While older people may still use printed recources, the younger generation has no experience with these materials and haven't been taught to use them. Technology is what we've grown up with, and what we're used to.
ReplyDeleteBooks express one's opinions, and people who disagree with these opinions give firemen a reason to burn them.
ReplyDeleteSpencer- Good point. Going back to what I said earlier people today just perfer to get information from the Internet rather than picking up a book and reading it.
ReplyDeleteMichael- I agree with you. This is also the cover-up that Beatty used with Montag in order to answer his questions concerning the past. However, Beatty should have been more truthful to Montag about the real reasons why the government banned books.
ReplyDeleteI strongly agree with John Michael, Ray Bradbury got a lot of things right about our future so fara, but he left out a HUGE part of our everyday lives. The internet! It is such a big part of our lives and if he knew about this when he wrote this, it would probably have changed a lot of the content of this book.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Joe on that Guy is afraid of information being gone, not books. He wants information to stick around, if books fall by the wayside, so be it.
ReplyDeleteI think it's true, that every piece of literature will always offend someone, somewhere. But if we take away writings and such, just to avoid offending different people, it's taking away our freedoms of freedom and press.
ReplyDeleteNot everyone can write a book, but everyone can write on the internet. So in F451, could internet access be restricted to a specific extent?
ReplyDeleteTechnology has changed us. It is so much easier to insult over the internet or email or facebook or texting as opposed to face-to-face.
ReplyDeleteThe gov. could censor the internet. After all, they started the internet so aren't they the "owner" or "creator"?
ReplyDeleteObviously people of this day(in Fahrenheit 451) seem insensitive, but some sensitivity was obviously left because of what Beatty said. The blacks were offended by "Little Black Sambo", whites by "Uncle Tom's Cabin", so obviously they were sensitive enough to these racially-insulting books that they were burned. This shows that not every value has disappeared with the rapid change of the world and people still have sensitivity.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Katie. If most of the people in this book don't really think, then why would they have the internet? Plus the internet has stuff that would make certain people mad, so like books, they would have to get rid of it.
ReplyDeleteLike Joe said, Bradbury didn't predict the internet. But this doesn't mean that the internet is bad or should be banned. The internet doesn't mean that the information is gone, it just means that the information is in a different medium. The internet can be censored too, like in china and north korea.
ReplyDeleteThe people did not care enough to have an idea. They only cared about their TVs and Seashells.
ReplyDeleteI think that John Michael is right about Ray Bradbury mising the internet, but if they were able to destroy and censor all books, wouldn't they be able to destroy computers?
ReplyDeleteJoe- i agree. There is no need for such communication, because there is nothing to communicate. There are no ideas, stories or even thoughts to discuss with one another.
ReplyDeleteThe printed words can be very offensive in one way or another, depending on a person's views on a specific subject. To different types of people, the internet is better at getting the information around. I do not know a single person who doesn't have a computer. But I do know many people who don't have the books they would need to do research. But since the internet is readily available, they don't feel the need to have those books.
ReplyDeleteThere is no outlet to share thought in F451 because for the most part, there is no thought!
ReplyDeleteJoe brings up a good point, we are stuck in our bubble of Centennial Colorado, but we dont think of the make up of the rest of the world who cant afford computers and even shoes! We have life good here, and when our focus for hours is facebook, other teenager's focus is food and supporting their siblings. I think we need to pop the bubble and think of the bigger picture. The entire world.
ReplyDelete"If you don't want a man unhappy politically,don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the government is inefficient, topheavy, and tax-mad, better it be all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag"
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What do you think it would be like if the Internet was shut down. We had no access to infomation? What if texting ceased to exist?
ReplyDelete1984 is exactly like this instead of destroying the information they just falsify it. Also as Joe previously said that the internet is not a step towards the 451's world were we don't have books. Before books it was human word. It doesn't matter what form its on it matters that its there. On the wiping it out memories change, its like the telephone game the word will change.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with Kate. We are very self-absorbed for the most part. We are lucky to live in our world. What relationship does our world have with Montag's?
ReplyDeleteIf the internet ceased to exit, I think conversation would be less bland and uninteresting. Questions would become more prevelent, and ideas would be more based on life rather than random facts.
ReplyDeleteThey two worlds are very similar in the ways of technological advances, and our relationship with one another.
ReplyDelete@mmoritz- Most Americans (and others around the world) rely on the internet and, for even some, base their life solely around the internet. If it disappeared, we would always use books and television and we couldn't fulfill the instant-gratification need that we desire today. We would research in encyclopedias and actually have to read novels for school (no sparknotes). With the internet lost, I think some things will be gained, but others lost. We would gain knowledge to navigate books and volumes, but lost fast fulfillment.
ReplyDeleteIf the internet was closed like would change but humans would adapt. We'd go back to before the internet. Humans adapt to a situation, Just like the 451's people have adapted to there lives.
ReplyDeleteI do not think that it would affect me drastically if the internet was shut down because I really only use it for the occasional youtube video and information for school research. If texting ceased to exist, I would call people a whole lot more. It would be inconvenient to have to call all of my teammates instead of sending out a mass text, but overall I would be able to deal with that because I am not an obsessive texter.
ReplyDeleteRight now, in our society we are so fortunate and dependent on our technology that when things are not working, even for a few minutes. . . we don't know what to do. The way we live is very fortunate compared to other countries that don't even have electricity. These people find other forms to communicate and find information. We get upset if the internet isn't working or if our phone has no signal. People who don't have these luxuries are not dependent on it.
ReplyDeleteIf the internet shut down, we would have to restart our society. Most of our information and contact with the world is through the internet. We would have to regather or rewrite new information and materials. It would greatly affect our society and the younger generation would have to relearn. If texting ceased to exist, I think it would be less of an impact. People would still be able to call, but less people would actually put in the effort of actually calling a person, after being so used to easy contact.
ReplyDeleteNo texting would be a problem. We would see a new medical condition, texting thumb syndrome: thumbs twitching wildly, as if they were textig on a phone keyborad. And teenagers would lose their vital communication link with their friends and family.
ReplyDeleteOur world depends on internet and electronic communication. It's pretty much the only communication at all that we have with far away places, and even near by places! Without it, our world (or at least America) would turn into chaos.
ReplyDeleteI think that people would go back to writing letters and talking on the telephone instead of just texting and emailing. Maybe people would just talk more. The post office would be a lot busier and I think people would be nicer. A lot of people are so mean online but not to that person's face so that shows that they don't have the courage to say something mean to someone. This way people will be nicer to eachother and online bullying will cease.
ReplyDeleteIf the internet was shut down and texting ceased, it would "end" some teenagers lives through facebook. These technologies are how we, as middle class teenagers connect with one another. After time everybody would cope and go back to the old customs of sending letters instead of emails, talking on the phone instead of texting, having to draw instead of print pictures from google, and actually having to think deeply about answers instead of googling or binging the answer to everyting. Teenagers would be upset and learn new ways.
ReplyDeleteI think that in farenheit 451 the government, while part of the problem is not the antagonist of the story. The problem with the society in the book and our society. People nowdays are so easily offended and want everything to be so friendly and bland so that no one is offended. I think that in a society with thinkers, inventors and people with open imaginations, people will be offended by others. This is not to say that people should be persecuted for their differences, but that we should not be so concerned with it that we destroy all intelligence and free thought in order to establish a friendly atmosphere for life.
ReplyDeleteMrs. Moritz- I think that our current generation would be pissed. Technology is a major part of our lives, a large part of the population depends on technology to access information. However, my mom, while she was in school used to have to look up information in encyclopedias and the library, now there is no use because of this new technology. Future generations probably wouldn't care because it's what they know, they don't know anything different. What effect does technology have on our world? Is it good or bad?
ReplyDeleteI disagree, we think we depend on the internet but we don't. People lived before the internet it is possible. Humans adapt and if the internet was closed we wouldn't die we would change.
ReplyDeleteInternet is a proper noun
ReplyDeleteI think Beatty knows more then we give him credit for.
ReplyDeleteIn this society, no one is really happy, though. In today's society, I do not believe that the average citizen is truly, deeply happy because we depend on worldly possessions to make us content, but not permanently happy.
ReplyDeletei mean the problem in the book and in our society is the people in society.
ReplyDeleteIt's Beatty's JOB to dislike intellectuals and those who question, but now what he wants. That is why his large lecture contradicts itself. He is trying to convince Montag that burning is good and clean, but he also says that we are destoying our past.
ReplyDeleteDo you think, since Beatty is apparently so interested in books, that he has a book or two? Maybe Montag isn't the only one that has taken a book on the job . . .
ReplyDeleteMacy-I agree. I think that we need to choose to learn and choose our future. Education should be a huge value for everybody.
ReplyDeleteI think being in school in general is expected, if we had a choice from when we were born, America would be even more dumbed down than it is today.
ReplyDeleteI'm here because it makes me happy, not necessary school but being able to think. I live to be happy, going to a good college having a good job that will lead to happiness.
ReplyDeletePlaypen? Isn't the parlor like a playpen in this case?
ReplyDeleteI think they government in Fahrenheit 451 I think that it relates to our school life a lot, in the sense that we have people above us making decisions for us, just like the goverment is doing in the book.
ReplyDelete@Emily--Technology has good effects on our socitey. We use it in our everyday lives. Look at the LPS Google Apps program here at AHS. Most of my teachers use it and I must us it everday to stay up in my classes.
ReplyDeleteThere will always be a playpen. The playpen is laws, its order without it there would be chaos. The Lord of The Flys there was no play pen.
ReplyDeleteGoing off of what Maria said, not only do we not have deep happiness, we look for immediate happiness to acheive a higher level of immediate happiness, a bigger house, more money, less work. We try to improve our immediate happiness, not achieve a deeper happiness.
ReplyDelete@Everyone--I appreciate that you are thinking about your future and preparing for AP courses so that you can ultimately gain college credit while in high school; however, I truly believe--for most of you--if you were in a regular level English class you would be bored...you wouldn't be challenged...and you would come crying to me beggin to be in my awesome HONORS class!!!!!
ReplyDeleteEmma- Beatty knows a lot more than the average fireman should for a person who burns books and knowledge. i think he has read books and probably owned a few.
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ReplyDeleteI agree, Mrs. Moritz. I think that sometimes even if we should be in higher level classes, we would rather be lazy and not work as hard. Being in a regular english class would be a 'better' work load, but it wouldn't help us live up to our full potential. Challenging ourselves is what helps us make progress.
ReplyDeleteYou're goal in life is to not just be happy because life is more than just happiness but a series of emotions and a perfect world with perfect lives is not really happiness. Life has to be lived with it's obstacles for us to be able to live. Not just exist.
ReplyDelete:) I agree Mrs. Moritz. We challenge ourselves everyday. To me, learning and happiness go together because we have that right and that freedom. There are places in the world that don't have these freedoms and we often take advantage of it...
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with Troy, when he's saying the playpen is essential in a society.
ReplyDeleteThe concept of "happy" has really evolved over time. Mildred is happy watching television all day, and Beatty is happy burning books. Now, we find happiness in star-gazing, or sitting down to dinner with our families and talking about our day.
ReplyDeleteI'm still wondering who was at the door after Beatty left?
ReplyDeleteThe music we listen to, the tv shows we watch, our religion, and the clothes we wear are not what defines us. These are the things that create a superficial existence. It is the ideas that we create and what we do to bring those to reality that defines us as people.
ReplyDeleteIf the self-created playpen fails, then don't we depend on the gov. to keep us in the established playpen
ReplyDeleteThe playpen cause rhyme and reason, there are good playpens and bad playpens, Joe is right there needs to be moderation.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Joe on moderation. If we had no government, life would be horrible, and if the government was too conrolling, life would be horrible.
ReplyDeleteLast comments? log off; shut down :)
ReplyDeleteThe balance is what works, but in F451 they have no balance. There is too much govt. because they continue to restrict access to certain materials. Books, and maybe other things.
ReplyDeleteGood point Eric, and "happy" also has different meanings to each person, I love to camp and look at the stars or walk in the rain but I am sure that some other people hate to camp or think its boring to sit down and look and the stars. Not only has "happy" evolved over time, it also is completely different between people and "happy" is a hard term to really wrap your head around.
ReplyDeleteI think what people are forgetting is that the government is made of people, but the government amplifies people's lust for power
ReplyDelete