Maybe Mr. charrington was trying to see what they were trying to do anyway. He know that he will eventually catch them but he wants to see what julia and winston are up too.
Mr. Charrington went along for so long because he is a spy and is supposed to be undercover. If thought police were revealed, then there wouldn't be many crimes committed around those police because the people that are guilty would be vaporized instantly.
He had to find what they knew, who else was involved, their motives, etc. They also used the information that they learned from spying on them while Winston was being interrogated. The more they know, the more ammunition they have against him, and the easier it is to break him.
@mikaelam yes that's right, that's why they are undercover and not revealed as thought police. If nobody knows who is thought police and who isn't, they most likely won't do anything bad because of the risk that the person next to them may be watching them.
Mr. Charrington made sure that Winston and Julia were committing thoughtcrime. I think he let it go on for long enough that Julia and Winston also knew what they did wrong, there is no way of escaping if he let it go on long enough.
If all of these people are secretly with the government and trying to catch people, how would anyone ever change or do something illegal. Who can Winston and Julia trust
I definitely think that O'Brien gave him the book in order to assist, so to speak, in the catching of Winston and Julia. And that book is just all the more wrong that they have done according to society.
I think Julia's rebellion is skin deep. Winston cares deeply about the Brotherhood, and Julia doesn't seem to truly care. She loves the idea of rebellion, that is what initially drew her towards Wiston. But being uninterested as she seems to be with the bigger picture, i can't help but wonder what her true intentions are...
It's absolutely possible that Julia could be a member of the inner party. I don't think it's going to happen, but it could happen. Mr. Charrington waiting long enough to catch Winston and Julia, so Julia could be waiting for the right moment to capture Winston. I haven't had a very good feeling about Julia since she came into the book...
I think that yes, Julia could potentially be part of the Thought Police because she has done it so many times, and coincidentally has never been caught.
I think that Julia is a part of the inner party because they don’t act like they truly love one another. She is rebellious but maybe being a double agent is the rebellion in her life.
@Abbie Well if Julia is a part of the thought police, then maybe she just doesn't want to discuss the government in a negative way so that she is not charged with thought-crime.
I think that that could possibly happen. Julia was always interested in Winston and she seemed determined to get to know him. If she just disapeared, he would assume she was dead, when really she could be out on another job to capture another man. He would never suspect her.
I agree with Nicole...why would the Inner Party spend so much time on one individual? How did Julia get the just that Winston coulud be rebellious? Like Mrs. Moritz said, Julia hit on him first...
@Abbie, i think she only cares about things that affect her directly because she only cares about her rebelling and her taking down the party, she doesn't seem to care about anyone else.
I think that if Julia was in fact a thought police, it has taken so much time for them to get arrested, because they may want to see just how many people they can get to go against the system, and how far they are willing to go.
I also noticed that when Winston was reading the book O'Brien gave him the title was WAR IS PEACE. Isn't the brotherhood supposed to be against the warring of the three superstates? I felt like the title suggested that the only way to get to peace is trough war. That doesnt seem like an idea of the brotherhood.
If Julia is a part of the thought police she would have turned in Obrien and the servant. Unless all these people that winston trusts are a part of the thought police, Julia would have caught so many people by now.
I think Moritz has a good point. From the beginning in which Julia initiated the relationship with the note, from the "I have done this with many Party members" and with the passion and what would seem like love - but under further investigation - it really isn't love. If they love each other... it would look different. She, and her behavior throughout the novel seem suspicious.
@Emily I don't think Winston does trust anyone completely, there's always a suspision of who is truly on his side. I think Winston was just living one day at a time.
I remember that the book written by Goldstein he was talking about science only used to find out how to break down people, are they going to die or be brainwashed?
What if the Inner party are not killing people but torturing them to the point that they are for the party. Maybe the thought police are traitors that have had a whole different mind set.
They have to break their most recent generation so that the future are subordinate. If they even let a trace of rebellion survive on, then it has the potential to grow and grow.
The government really wants to screw up the intellectuality of the society. They create a society where nobody can trust each other because of secret unknown thought police around.
I agree with michaela, that is a very tough decision. I think that many people would rather die instead of being imprisoned for the rest of his/her life.
Zach - the "hint" of rebellion seems like a hopeless idea, if everyone Winston has trusted is actually against him. Are all the "hints" of rebellion fake?
I agree with Kara and Emily. When the people are imprisoned, they could be totured or brainwashed to eventually become part of the party. Maybe everyone in the party was imprisoned at one point in time, and thats how Big Brother is able to monitar them.
What, so they just drop bombs randomly on each other? The whole idea of a staged war seems completely plausible. The government wants power. A war instills terror into the people. They will obey BB. A disgusting concept of a staged war. How could people just kill one another? Why is there no problem with death?
I dont think the war is real. I think it's a way to keep people scared so they stay loyal to Oceania because it's the only form of "protection". Also, the majority of the bombs are dropped on the proles, right? And the proles are the ones who are most likely to commit crimes.
I think it's possible that the vaporized people turn into the soldiers, or the thought police. They could be brainwashed or tortured to the point that they switch sides, and support the system. The government in this book is all about letting the people see what they want them to see, so we have no way of knowing with all that propeganda.
We talked about this in history. censorship, I think it starts with people not caring and not wanting to know what is really going on and then the government feels that they can hide essentially everything, like big brother and the inner party.
I think war is just hating the other country not actual fighting. Obviously Eurasia and Oceania weren't in a "real" war because suddenly they Oceania was in a war with Eastasia in a matter of seconds.
@Corey- maybe the government is using the bombs to scare the civilians, to make the war (if it is fake)more real while protecting the power of BIG BROTHER
@Jack, well. it could be true, but they want it to seem real. if it were too fake, no one would go with it. i think there may be an actual brotherhood out there, but not the one winston knew of.
For all the information that people know in this book, they really don't know much.
And the possibility of the American government lying to us... that's insane. If they are - just think of how real we think our world is. What if it is all a lie? I don't think I could handle it.
We know how much the government in 1984 lies to the people, because we read about it. We have NO way of knowing what our government lies about or hides from us, because it's not a story, it's real life.
If they have one spy toying with the public they most definatly have more
ReplyDeleteI think he was trying to squeeze as much info out of them as he could so he could make sure that noone else is a co-conspirator.
ReplyDeleteI think that Charrington thought that he could catch them doing something more rebellious, so he waited to see.
ReplyDeleteAnd of course, maybe Charrington let it play out for the sake of having more to charge them against. Maybe secure their immediate execution.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Mr. charrington was trying to see what they were trying to do anyway. He know that he will eventually catch them but he wants to see what julia and winston are up too.
ReplyDeleteMr. Charrington went along for so long because he is a spy and is supposed to be undercover. If thought police were revealed, then there wouldn't be many crimes committed around those police because the people that are guilty would be vaporized instantly.
ReplyDeletemabye they want to see what will happen and anticipate the next upriseing thingy and so better prepare themselves to deal with the issue.
ReplyDeleteHe had to find what they knew, who else was involved, their motives, etc. They also used the information that they learned from spying on them while Winston was being interrogated. The more they know, the more ammunition they have against him, and the easier it is to break him.
ReplyDeleteSo couldn't anyone be thought police...in disguise?
ReplyDeleteThe thought police are everywhere undercover acting as normal proles and party members. But why did they wait so long to arrest Julia and Winston?
ReplyDeleteMaybe Charrington knew they were in the "Brotherhood" and he wanted to get more information about it.
ReplyDeleteI think that the government really does set people up so they are definately going to be caught.
ReplyDelete@Megan, maybe they wanted more information about the Brotherhood
ReplyDelete@mikaelam yes that's right, that's why they are undercover and not revealed as thought police. If nobody knows who is thought police and who isn't, they most likely won't do anything bad because of the risk that the person next to them may be watching them.
ReplyDelete@Kelsie -
ReplyDeleteHow would he know?
I agree with Zach. They needed to know all the information that they could possibly obtain.
ReplyDeleteMr. Charrington made sure that Winston and Julia were committing thoughtcrime. I think he let it go on for long enough that Julia and Winston also knew what they did wrong, there is no way of escaping if he let it go on long enough.
ReplyDelete*definitely
ReplyDelete@Kelsi, why would they interrigate Winston for more information on the Brotherhood?
ReplyDeleteSo is the theory of the brotherhood real, or just another part of the ruse to trap them?
ReplyDeleteWell, at the beginning of the book, I thought Julia was a member of the government. Anyone in this society could be pretending...
ReplyDeleteIs the brotherhood even real?
Maybe O'Brian was already being watched, so when the brotherhood became stronger, the thought police had a way of finding others.
ReplyDeleteIf all of these people are secretly with the government and trying to catch people, how would anyone ever change or do something illegal. Who can Winston and Julia trust
ReplyDeleteI definitely think that O'Brien gave him the book in order to assist, so to speak, in the catching of Winston and Julia. And that book is just all the more wrong that they have done according to society.
ReplyDelete@Mikaela, well the thought police are everywhere. And like Mrs. Moritz said, O'Brien might have had something to do with it
ReplyDelete@Abbie, maybe they think that Winston and Julia know more about the brotherhood than they actually do
But griffin, wouldn't they take down the whole "brotherhood" if he was a person who was trying to bust people.
ReplyDeleteWhat if there is no brotherhood? The party could easily make something like that up to lure unloyal people in. it could be just like one more trap.
ReplyDeleteI think that he set them up because he knew that Winston was already doing things that he wasnt supposed to be doing.
ReplyDeleteI think O'Brien might actually be a party member whose job is to catch people like Julia and Winston who are against the party.
ReplyDeleteMaybe they were suspicious of O' Brian and they detected who was in contact with him. This could have lead to the thought police to winston and julia.
ReplyDelete@Sydney, I have the same question, is the Brotherhood real, and if it is then how does the Party know about it?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Emily. Because Mr. Charrington let it go on so long, there is no way of denying that they were commiting crimes.
ReplyDeleteHow much of the Brotherhood do you think is actually real? Versus people pretending...like being part of the Thought Police?...
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jack. The Brotherhood is a perfect method for the government to capture rebels.
ReplyDelete@Jack if the Brotherhood is not true then why would they allow the books to circulate and the truth to be shared?
ReplyDeleteThere is a question on the back board that says, "why does Julia only care about things that effect her directly?" Any thoughts??
ReplyDeleteI think that anyone could be fake....
ReplyDeleteAlso, the recognition of the brotherhood by O'Brian may be to comfort Winston into giving up his secrets.
ReplyDeleteI think that Julia could definitly be part of the inner party. She would be the perfect person to pull men in.
ReplyDeleteI think Julia's rebellion is skin deep. Winston cares deeply about the Brotherhood, and Julia doesn't seem to truly care. She loves the idea of rebellion, that is what initially drew her towards Wiston. But being uninterested as she seems to be with the bigger picture, i can't help but wonder what her true intentions are...
ReplyDeleteWell I didn't see the whole Charrington-is-Thought-Police coming, so I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Julia being in on it too.
ReplyDeleteIt's absolutely possible that Julia could be a member of the inner party. I don't think it's going to happen, but it could happen. Mr. Charrington waiting long enough to catch Winston and Julia, so Julia could be waiting for the right moment to capture Winston. I haven't had a very good feeling about Julia since she came into the book...
ReplyDeleteI think that yes, Julia could potentially be part of the Thought Police because she has done it so many times, and coincidentally has never been caught.
ReplyDeleteI think is WAY too much wokr for one man. why would they waste 2 thought police on one man. This wen ton for a t least a month.
ReplyDeleteThey can't trust anyone, even eachother. the only safe place is with the proles. They were bound to get caught at some point, from somebody.
ReplyDeleteBut IS she a rebellious or is it just her job?
ReplyDeleteI think that Julia is a part of the inner party because they don’t act like they truly love one another. She is rebellious but maybe being a double agent is the rebellion in her life.
ReplyDelete@Abbie Well if Julia is a part of the thought police, then maybe she just doesn't want to discuss the government in a negative way so that she is not charged with thought-crime.
ReplyDeleteI think that that could possibly happen. Julia was always interested in Winston and she seemed determined to get to know him. If she just disapeared, he would assume she was dead, when really she could be out on another job to capture another man. He would never suspect her.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nicole...why would the Inner Party spend so much time on one individual? How did Julia get the just that Winston coulud be rebellious? Like Mrs. Moritz said, Julia hit on him first...
ReplyDeleteI agree Maria, they let it get to a point where, even though they don't need proof, they want it, they want it so that it's wrong beyond a doubt
ReplyDelete@Abbie, i think she only cares about things that affect her directly because she only cares about her rebelling and her taking down the party, she doesn't seem to care about anyone else.
ReplyDeleteWhile we are having these double thoughts about julia, how can Winston trust anyone in the society? Julia, Mr. Charrington, O'Brien?
ReplyDeleteI think that if Julia was in fact a thought police, it has taken so much time for them to get arrested, because they may want to see just how many people they can get to go against the system, and how far they are willing to go.
ReplyDeleteI think that could be part of Julia's job; drawing men in. Plus wouldn't it make the book all the more interesting?
ReplyDeleteIf the brother hood isnt real then what is the book?
ReplyDeleteI also noticed that when Winston was reading the book O'Brien gave him the title was WAR IS PEACE. Isn't the brotherhood supposed to be against the warring of the three superstates? I felt like the title suggested that the only way to get to peace is trough war. That doesnt seem like an idea of the brotherhood.
ReplyDeleteBut in their society, they don't need justification to go against a civilian.
ReplyDelete@Alyssa -
ReplyDeleteWhat someone would know Winston was against government?
If Julia is a part of the thought police she would have turned in Obrien and the servant. Unless all these people that winston trusts are a part of the thought police, Julia would have caught so many people by now.
ReplyDelete@megan, that's a really good point! Maybe she is just pretending to be rebellious and not care just so that she won't get in trouble.
ReplyDelete@Kelsi, that's a good point, do you think this is just her job for the party?
I think Moritz has a good point. From the beginning in which Julia initiated the relationship with the note, from the "I have done this with many Party members" and with the passion and what would seem like love - but under further investigation - it really isn't love. If they love each other... it would look different. She, and her behavior throughout the novel seem suspicious.
ReplyDelete@Jack,something they made up to get people to commit these crimes.
ReplyDeleteIf I lived in this society, I wouldn't trust anyone...
ReplyDelete@Emily I don't think Winston does trust anyone completely, there's always a suspision of who is truly on his side. I think Winston was just living one day at a time.
ReplyDelete@Abbie, it very well might be, it seems like a good possibility.
ReplyDeleteKara - what if O'Brien is in on it too?
ReplyDeleteI remember that the book written by Goldstein he was talking about science only used to find out how to break down people, are they going to die or be brainwashed?
ReplyDeleteWhat if the Inner party are not killing people but torturing them to the point that they are for the party. Maybe the thought police are traitors that have had a whole different mind set.
ReplyDeleteI think it is way worse to be in prison than to just die and be put out of misery.
ReplyDeleteThey have to break their most recent generation so that the future are subordinate. If they even let a trace of rebellion survive on, then it has the potential to grow and grow.
ReplyDeleteThe government really wants to screw up the intellectuality of the society. They create a society where nobody can trust each other because of secret unknown thought police around.
ReplyDeleteJack - maybe the book is one of the Party's tools. It might just be some sick joke, the whole thing, you know.
ReplyDeleteI agree with michaela, that is a very tough decision. I think that many people would rather die instead of being imprisoned for the rest of his/her life.
ReplyDeletenatalie- but why would all these people be after winston? He is one man that really hasnt done anything that bad.
ReplyDeleteWhat is real in the society of 1984 and what is just setups by the government? Is everything real or a set up?
ReplyDeleteZach - the "hint" of rebellion seems like a hopeless idea, if everyone Winston has trusted is actually against him. Are all the "hints" of rebellion fake?
ReplyDelete@sydney but its so true and raw they admit the have no reason to fight. explain how there culture is so violent is so real so it makes no sense.
ReplyDeleteThats a good point Natalie. It seems like everything is controlled by the party, if this is true, there would be no way of changing and escaping.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kara and Emily. When the people are imprisoned, they could be totured or brainwashed to eventually become part of the party. Maybe everyone in the party was imprisoned at one point in time, and thats how Big Brother is able to monitar them.
ReplyDelete@ Rebecca -
ReplyDeleteI don't think they would ACTUALLY fight if it was a fake war. I think that they would just fake the war...no soldiers.
I think that there is a "war", but it is more of a stalemate like The Book said, it just uses up excess resources.
ReplyDeleteMikeala, what if the "soldiers" are just people who have been vaporized?
ReplyDeleteWhat, so they just drop bombs randomly on each other? The whole idea of a staged war seems completely plausible. The government wants power. A war instills terror into the people. They will obey BB. A disgusting concept of a staged war. How could people just kill one another? Why is there no problem with death?
ReplyDeleteThe bombs being dropped would be pretty peculiar, though, if it was a fake war.
ReplyDeleteI dont think the war is real. I think it's a way to keep people scared so they stay loyal to Oceania because it's the only form of "protection". Also, the majority of the bombs are dropped on the proles, right? And the proles are the ones who are most likely to commit crimes.
ReplyDeleteIn the book though it says the war is ono avery small scale for a very small area. The government just exaggerated the scael of the war.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the upside of faking a war?
ReplyDeleteWhy do they want the citizens afraid?
I think it's possible that the vaporized people turn into the soldiers, or the thought police. They could be brainwashed or tortured to the point that they switch sides, and support the system. The government in this book is all about letting the people see what they want them to see, so we have no way of knowing with all that propeganda.
ReplyDelete@Corey The Party could be dropping the bombs in order to make the people fearful
ReplyDelete@Maria, so do you think that the bombs being dropped for "War" is just a cover up for trying to keep the people in the proles in line?
ReplyDeleteWe talked about this in history. censorship, I think it starts with people not caring and not wanting to know what is really going on and then the government feels that they can hide essentially everything, like big brother and the inner party.
ReplyDeleteI think war is just hating the other country not actual fighting. Obviously Eurasia and Oceania weren't in a "real" war because suddenly they Oceania was in a war with Eastasia in a matter of seconds.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Becca and they may decide not to tell us things for the security of the nation
ReplyDelete@Corey- maybe the government is using the bombs to scare the civilians, to make the war (if it is fake)more real while protecting the power of BIG BROTHER
ReplyDelete@Jack, well. it could be true, but they want it to seem real. if it were too fake, no one would go with it. i think there may be an actual brotherhood out there, but not the one winston knew of.
ReplyDeleteFor all the information that people know in this book, they really don't know much.
ReplyDeleteAnd the possibility of the American government lying to us... that's insane.
If they are - just think of how real we think our world is.
What if it is all a lie?
I don't think I could handle it.
We know how much the government in 1984 lies to the people, because we read about it. We have NO way of knowing what our government lies about or hides from us, because it's not a story, it's real life.
ReplyDelete