Griffin said that Julia probably wants to do something against The Party, but is having sex with Winston really against The Party? It seems like that the government doesn't really care if the people do things like this together, so do you agree with Griffen, why or why not?
I think it is interesting how Winston thought Julia was a thought police and considered her so involved in the party and was almost scared of her. Now that he knows her he can see that she is all about rebellion and is against the party. She disguised herself well and fools everyone.
I think that Julia is only attracted to the idea of sex, rather than being attracted to Winston himself. When winston asks her questions about important issues like the Party and how they lie, she either doesn't respond or asks to talk about something else. I think she's more into the sex than the importance going on in the world, like Winston is.
@Kelsie I think that Julia just want to rebel against the party. I honestly think that she's not really attracted to HIM at all she's just attracted to the idea of rebeling.
I think that people in 1984 are attracted to the idea of sex, not the actual feeling behind it. They only do it to help the party, so when there are people who really want to help the party, the just want the to do it to help.
@Kelsi- I think she likes Winston because he is kind of clueless about what The Party is doing and she is just trying to do something out of her norm, and Winston was just there.
I don't quite agree with Griffin. I'm pretty sure that the government doesn't care if people have sex, because they probably just think of it as a chance to get a new future government official. As our government doesn't really care if we have sex, their government doesn't care either.
I agree with grace, she probably isnt trying to over through the system. She is just testing them and seeing how far she can go with doing whatever she wants.
I agree with Mark. I think that Julie does like sex, and Winston likes that she likes sex. I think Winston says he loves her more because she has done it hundreds of times. They start with having sex just to rebel but then they start to do it because they enjoy it and start to feel a connection between each other. So, over time their relationship is becoming more meaningful.
I agree with Rebecca. I dont think that she is seeing how far she can go until she gets caught. I think that she doesnt care what people think and finds pleasure in rebeling against the system, just for the feeling not to see if she will get caught.
@Abbie: I agree. It seems like Julia's only trying to live in the moment. It doesn't seem like shes thinking ahead to the greater good of the world, or how to fix the world. I think Winston will be disappoined eventually, because possibly Julia could just be using him.
With as much trust she has from the government, she could have done her best already. The only way she will try to overthrow the system will be if Winston convinces her to. She just wants to defy their authority.
@Emily- I agree, but do you think this could effect her future with The Party? @Mark- I think they just found a secret spot so that they weren't doing it in public, or maybe she just doesn't want the people who are a part of The Party to think badly of her.
@Abbie I think that the government just wants their people to use sex as a way to make babies, and for no other reason. It's only a duty to the party. So in a way, Julia and Winston are going against the government.
@Abbie I think that there is an unspoken rule that sex is not supposed to be enjoyable and its only purpose is to produce offspring as a duty to the party. Therefore, by having sex for pure enjoyment she is going against the party and what it stands for.
Although they might be just getting together for sex I think sooner or later they will relaize that there is actually something more to their relationship.
@Kara: Maybe she gets a thrill from sneaking around with Winston. She doesn't really care whats going on, and usually just says "Why does this matter to me?" when Winston asks her questions about the Party.
I think that Julia wants to test what kinds of things she can do to get into the gov to find other rebels, and people to help her with the revolution...maybe.
I think Winston and Julia have the ability to change the society. I think Winston will inspire Julia to actually voice her opinion and make a change and I think that Julia will inspire Winston to not be so scared and do what he wants. I think if they didnt have eachother I dont think they could do anything to change on there own.
Grace makes a really good point! Julia is like an extension to the diary. Winston's rebellion seems to be growing. First it was just writing in the diary and now that Julia has come along, it's rebelling through action.
I find myself in relation to Julia as the complete antithesis of everything she stands for. About going against authority, being a rebel, and testing her limits. Of course I do not find myself in the same situation as Julia and the world she lives in but I do think that going against the party with sex is not the best way to go, why aggrivate the party? What do you gain? Only self satisfaction nothing moving society torward a better tomorrow. I would rather make a difference and be a marter, than go angainst the Party in such a manner as she does.
@ Abbie: Yes it probably could effect her future. Like Emma said, I think that they believe that the best purpose of sex is to create babies.
@ Mark: I think that they found a spot that nobody would find them is because public sex would be awkward, especially if somebody else was there. I don't necessarily think that they are hiding from the government.
If Julia has already had sex with other party officials, what happened to them? Did they get affected at all by having sex with her or did there attitudes change toward the party like Winston?
If Julia is just using Winston for sex how long do you think it will last and do you think that Julia would rat out Winston to the thought police in order to save herself?
Megan: That's true. The government takes away the pleaure from sex, and makes it seem like a horrible thing to do it for pleasure. Like with Katherine... Winston said that when they had sex "for the duty of the party" she never really enjoyed it. Actually, quoting the book, it says that "she just submitted".
Adressing Mortiz's question.. I think that the sex Winston and Julia are having is different from "doing your duty to the party" because Julia has the instinctual desire, while ones who do it for the party dont have the desire anymore because the government has dirtied the idea so much.
@Megan, I think that Julia will keep "using" Winston as long as she knows that neither of them are in trouble with the Thought Police. When she first thinks that he's in any bit of trouble, she will leave him.
@ Mark: I think that hiding from the government was only a small dose of the reason they were hiding but I have a feeling it also had something to do with the weirdness of public sex.
Mrs. Moritz is right, like when I see my brothers, they look the same to me as they did when I was five. Julia, I think, won't ever get to that point with Winston. They have already had sex with each other and I think she is just using him. Relationships take a while to form and I don't think that jumping straight to that right off the bat can allow type of relationship to form.
@Kara I think that Julia passes on to other men whenever she feels intrested or attracted to someone else or they just get vaporized for thoughts against the government.
Mortiz: We judge people automatically sometimes. what makes me suspicious is that Julia wrote to Winston "I love you." But if he wasn't so attractive, then why, of all people, would she chose him? She didn't even know him at all or knew what he was like. It makes me think that she is just using him for sex.
I think they just want to rebel against the party. Sometimes, being told not to do something just makes us want to do it more. I remember at my old school we couldn't chew gum but that just made us do it more because we thought it was "so bad".
I still think that over time they are going to become closer. If you are giving yourself to somebody (sex) multiple times I think you do become closer. I think often, as people get older they get a divorce because their sex isn't as good. On the other hand, those that stay together through that time do become in a lot of ways closer and have a deeper relationship.
I agree with Corey, we all want everything right now, and that changes everyone's first impressions, we don't even consider other ideas, it's almost peer pressure(in the "story" Moritz was telling).
I believe that you think that you imagine someone differently then the first impression. But you never do, it will always be in the back of your mind and you will remember it sooner or later.
@Haley: That is completely true. I completely agree with the concept of rebelling. We couldn't chew gum at my school and then you would look around and see people passing around gum. Back to 1984, I think that Julia and Winston have this typical urge to rebel that everybody has inside of them.
With what Mikayla said, I think that Orwell put her in the book for more than just a "one nighter" type of girl. She's going to have to serve a better purpose.
@ Zach I think that a first impressions are important and do tend to last for a while, but if you actually try to get to know that person, your opinion of them might change because you'll see them as a person instead of just a rumor or a topic of gossip.
I agree with Moritz that their relationship won't last because there is no emotion or feelings behind their relationship. I think that wwhen they become exhausted of eachother Julia will move on to another rebellious man.
@Zach, first impressions do last but they can be covered up. I have a friend that I met 2 years ago but I wasn't friends with her until a year after that. My first impression of her was "Quiet and shy." Now, She's my loudest friend and when I see her, I don't think about that first impression.
@Mrs. Morritz How do you know? I'm going to be the devil's advicate. Couldn't it last if you only see each other for sex. Then, once they get bored the relationship doesn't have to continue and they would both be happy.
I agree with Zach and Kara, people are labeled all the time. We see some girl in the hall who is always with a guy, or is dressed in revealing clothes and we atomatically think that girl is dumb and only cares about boys. It's so easy to judge people and once we judge someone it's hard to break away from that. I'm not saying that I never jugde people, because I know I do, but I believe it is important to knock that habbit. In this book I think that's what everyone is doing all the time, especially the thought police who become suspicious of the people who look rebellious.
I think that there relationship will evolve into something despite a beginning that was too quick. They have more in common than they know and I think that will keep them together and appreciative of eachother.
Reputataions appear to be set in stone but I think that they can change, If the person with the reputation truely wantes it to. What makes reputations so hard to change is not the actual person with the rep but all the people that have excepted that rep and will always reffer to the rep as a part of that person.So that is why people have to be careful about how they start their image from the beginning because inevitably it sticks with them forever, whether they want it to or not.
@ Emma - I agree. I have had many people give me a first impression that has changed (sometimes quickly). It just can take a long time for that change to occur for some people.
Kind of like what has been said, first impressions aren't the final impression. If you actually get to know the person, you might learn a lot about them. Some people don't quite show their true personality the first time they meet somebody also. For example, the first time I meet people, I am really quiet. The better I get to know you, the more I start to talk.
@Nicole: I agree and disagree. I agree that you are in charge of your reputation, but it is the people who keep the reputation. I think that even if you move on, the people around you are the ones who keep the [bad] reputation alive.
@Dan--with the possibility of completely embarrassing myself---it's exhausting. You cannot maintain a completely physical relationship for a very long period of time. Plus, you would get bored.
@Megan: So if Julia is going to move on to another rebellious man after she gets board with Winston, then where is that going to leave Winston? And if so then Julia would seem like a pointless character, to the story if fshe just picks up and leaves, right?.
@Sydney I think they will only be able to find emotion in their relationship if they slow down and really think about their relationship as more than just an affair and that is not what Julia wants.
@ Nicole: I agree with complete reputation changes. I know some people who were once the total nerd who are now the popular kids. However, people don't forget the person you once were.
@Megan, Julia is included in the book, maybe, to spark the rebellion that Winston has and to amplify it so that something big in the story will happen.
What is Julia going to do once she gets bored with Winston? Is it worth all this effort, hiding, lying, sneaking for her? This is a lot of work for - what I think - such a small reward, so do you think she will go through this again after, or has she done this before, Winston?
If she just leaves because she's "bored" then what would she have done in the novel? I think that something has to happen. My opinion is that 1. She'll actually fall in the love with Winston and they will plan to fight the soceity, or 2. she will turn him in somewhere. Something has to happen.
@Kara- I COMPLETELY agree with you. So many people judge people just on what they do. The person who decided to make that decision feels bad about it, but other people view that horribly.
I agree with Kara. We all have friends who have bad traits and do things that aren't necessarily right, but in the end, we learn to look past those faults. So, why can't we do this with people we judge on a first impression?
@Mrs Morritz I agree that they won't continue this relationship they have, but i'm saying that when it ends, in this type of reltaionship and this type of people, it seems that it doesn't have to have an effect because they don't rely on each other. If they still want to have sex they can find somebody else. If not they don't know each other so they are not really loosing anything.
@Nicole I think that Julia is put into the story to show how she thinks and believes in rebeling against the party, although it's not very effective and is just for pure satisfaction so if she does leave Winston her part in the story would not be for nothing.
@abbie- i think that she would move on. To me, she doesnt seem like the type to become attached to something so much she cant let go. I believe that she would move on until she found something/someone else to occupy her time.
@Rebecca. I dont think people want to rebel. People are c omforted by structure and schedule. Rebeling would make everyone vulnerable and in a whole new state of mind, which is scary and it is just easier to have people tell you what to think. We view this as horrible but they dont know what it is like to think on there own and its terrifying just like having somone control our thoughts is terrifying to us.
@Emily, that is such a good point! I belive that people can completely turn their reputation around, it takes time but it can be done. There will be people who won't forget who you were, but that's good because it makes people realize that they can always change too, for better or worse.
When Winston asks Julia about serious questions, she just replies with "It doesn't matter to me." It makes you wonder if you, right now, in this soecity, should be questioning certain things. Are we blinded by something? Should we be the ones questioning the government, or should we just let them do what they do? I know that our soceity isn't as awful as 1984's soceity... but still, should we be questioning how things work?
@Megan, I think she wants some kind of emotional relationship with someone, and she wants it to be with Winston. They don't have time or resources to have "dates" and get to know each other, so they have to do what they can.
I don't think that they can overthrow the govenment. The only way that this government could be overthrown is by another power. Just like in WWII only other countries could stop Germany's rise to power.
Everytime Julia and Winston meet there seems the be a physical reminder that they are dipping themselves in a world before the Revolution,and the life that is now banned; such as the real chocolate and the real coffee... these black market items slowly bring Winston back to a time he cannot pin down exactly but faintly remembers these "real" items have to have some relevance to Julia and Winston's relationship, do think they matter or are just thrown into the plot?
@Holly If Julia wanted more than just an affair she wouldn't feel like every time they're together they need to have sex. She would be content in just getting to know and be with Winston.
Winston and Julia can't overthrow the government by themselves, or even with the help of a hundred or more government workers. They are too regulated and blinded. Hope is in the proles, as Winston says, they have to do the revolution. Maybe winston and Julia will prompt them.
@Kara eventually some people will get tired of that same schedule every day and will want a change. Ex: Winston, Julia, and all the other people who disagree with the government
@Daniel--but wasn't your original post 'why couldn't they maintain that type of relationship'? I agree with you that if that kind of relationship is all they seek, they can just go find another person and start all over again.
@Syndey But if they really just wanted to be toghether don't you think they would get to know and become close to one another in some of the time they use to have sex?
@Michaela - You bring up a good point. Personally, i think people DO question how things work everyday! It's nearly impossible to have a form of government where everyone is happy and in a country where we have the rights to free speech/petition/etc, i am sure people are questioning our government today.
@Daniel, Would the other countries have the guts to take on this country to overthrow them completely? This country is always at war and they seem to win a lot
Like what rebecca said, I think that he just wants to be happy, but he's getting to attached to Julia for his own good. In the book he says: "The paperweight was the room he was in, and the coral was Julia's life and his own, fixed in a sort of eternity at the heart of the crystal." It seems like he is stuck in an eternity with her now, and maybe he's going to get disappointed if Julia leaves soon.
@Michaela M: We do question our government and our way of life all the time, we have constant debates over politics and corruption. Plus I do not believe that we are quite spoken people, if somethings up someones talking about.
@Moritz, I think they don't go live with the proles because Julia is focusing on her "career" with The Party and they aren't committed to each other, so it wouldn't be worth it for them to move and live together.
@Moritz- Thats a good point. This relates back to where they are doing it against the Party. They also have jobs and work in the area, so they would loose a lot if they left.
@Moritz, I think that they aren't going to go live in the proles because if he just left his work and his house to be in the proles, that would be pretty suspicious.
@Maria: But it makes me wonder if we are too oblivious to question serious matters. I mean something such as conspiracy theories that we don't know are true, but question once and move on. Is there a "Winston" in our world, and are we just the proles?
@Moritz There is too much risk in going to live with the proles. By leaving the party they're announcing that the don't want to be in the party and work for the good of all society.
@Mrs. Moritz I guess that I meant that they could continue this relationship until they both don't want to, but I personally hope that having sex has a large effect on them, and they would become closer and rely on each other because of it. Part of me doubts it though. If they don't put the effort in to know each other I don't think that they will. They won't need each other.
@Nicole: Yes, but what if it's something we don't have enough information to have a valid debate over? Politics are politics. What if this is something we don't have total acess to? I'm not saying something like this exists. It only makes me wonder if we are like the proles but don't know it.
I agree with rebecca. I think the reason they broadcast Goldstein and keep him around shows that they have enemies and what there saying is wrong and the society needs to work together to keep those enemies out.
I have a feeling that since Winston and Julia's relationship has no emotional aspects that it is like "their duty against the party" not really for their enjoyment just a productive way to take out steam against the party.
@Daniel- Yes. I totally agree with you. Once they are bored of having sex, what other factor will make them want to stay together? I feel that this will be a very important conflict throughout the book.
We do need something to lean on, if not then we would question ourselves on plenty of matters, because without some serious backup to lean on. Kind of like we wouldn't have a "Plan B".
I think that this book has some major differences from Hitler. I think people in Germany knew what was going on, were terrified by it and wanted to help but couldnt. I think these people are completley ignorant on what is going on. Even Winston and Julia dont know what happens to all these people that "dissapear".
Refeering to Rebecca's comment: What has the Party given them? Stew with questionable meat inside? Telescreens to let the Party watch you 24/7? I think they've given them nothing expect the proof that, according to their slogan, "Freedom is slavery".
@Micheala I think that although most people really monitor the government and their actions, many people don't see as their government really impacting their lives and therefore, don't question the government as much as they should. But in America we are fortunate enough to have the freedom of questioning our government.
He trusts Charrington because he is a prole, because he is selling illegal things to Party workers, although maybe he would turn him in for more money for the shop(?)
@Michaela - I would actually say no to your Winston question. Because nowadays media is SO revealing that us average American people can know most of the government affairs inside and out if we wanted to. Not to cut down our government, but I dont think they have the resources to hide big things from the public completely.
I think that Mr. Charrington is a questionable character. He seems kind, yes. He also seems to anything for a dollar, including giving a room for Julia and Winston. You don't think he doesn't know whats going on?
@Kara I agree this is different than the holocaust. What Hitler did to the Jews was genocide not government control. Yes the government does kill people but not in mass numbers and they don't target a specific race.
@Michaela M:Our government is for the people, by the people, adn of the people so democracy actually treating the people like proles is a scary idea. Just like beong unconciously ingnorant(what the proles are), because you don't know what you don't know... but I have a feeling if we didn't know what the gov. was up to our lives would become more like life in 1984 but this hasn't happened, life in 1984 is a duty not a gift not full of all the joys that we encounter today. So if everyday life starts to alter run for cover but I am confinent that we as a whole people can pull through and ensure that the gov. is truthful (to a certain degree)and our lives secure.
I think that Julia likes sex, and the fact that she is doing something against the party.
ReplyDeleteIf not his looks, why do you think Julia likes Winston? She couldn't have known that much about his mind if she had never talked to him before.
ReplyDeleteGriffin said that Julia probably wants to do something against The Party, but is having sex with Winston really against The Party? It seems like that the government doesn't really care if the people do things like this together, so do you agree with Griffen, why or why not?
ReplyDeleteI think it is interesting how Winston thought Julia was a thought police and considered her so involved in the party and was almost scared of her. Now that he knows her he can see that she is all about rebellion and is against the party. She disguised herself well and fools everyone.
ReplyDeleteI think that Julia is only attracted to the idea of sex, rather than being attracted to Winston himself. When winston asks her questions about important issues like the Party and how they lie, she either doesn't respond or asks to talk about something else. I think she's more into the sex than the importance going on in the world, like Winston is.
ReplyDelete@Kelsie I think that Julia just want to rebel against the party. I honestly think that she's not really attracted to HIM at all she's just attracted to the idea of rebeling.
ReplyDeleteI think that people in 1984 are attracted to the idea of sex, not the actual feeling behind it. They only do it to help the party, so when there are people who really want to help the party, the just want the to do it to help.
ReplyDelete@Kelsi- I think she likes Winston because he is kind of clueless about what The Party is doing and she is just trying to do something out of her norm, and Winston was just there.
ReplyDeleteI don't quite agree with Griffin. I'm pretty sure that the government doesn't care if people have sex, because they probably just think of it as a chance to get a new future government official. As our government doesn't really care if we have sex, their government doesn't care either.
ReplyDelete@Kelsie - I think Julia saw that Winston was different kind of in the same way Winston saw that O'Brien was different.
ReplyDelete@Abbie- Yes because they had to find that hideout place to have sex, where no one could see or hear them.
ReplyDeleteI agree with grace, she probably isnt trying to over through the system. She is just testing them and seeing how far she can go with doing whatever she wants.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Mark. I think that Julie does like sex, and Winston likes that she likes sex. I think Winston says he loves her more because she has done it hundreds of times. They start with having sex just to rebel but then they start to do it because they enjoy it and start to feel a connection between each other. So, over time their relationship is becoming more meaningful.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Rebecca. I dont think that she is seeing how far she can go until she gets caught. I think that she doesnt care what people think and finds pleasure in rebeling against the system, just for the feeling not to see if she will get caught.
ReplyDelete@Abbie: I agree. It seems like Julia's only trying to live in the moment. It doesn't seem like shes thinking ahead to the greater good of the world, or how to fix the world. I think Winston will be disappoined eventually, because possibly Julia could just be using him.
ReplyDeleteWith as much trust she has from the government, she could have done her best already. The only way she will try to overthrow the system will be if Winston convinces her to. She just wants to defy their authority.
ReplyDelete@Emily - I actually think the government DOES care... It has said that the government is trying to dirty the idea of sex and make people not want it.
ReplyDelete@Emily- I agree, but do you think this could effect her future with The Party?
ReplyDelete@Mark- I think they just found a secret spot so that they weren't doing it in public, or maybe she just doesn't want the people who are a part of The Party to think badly of her.
@Abbie I think that the government just wants their people to use sex as a way to make babies, and for no other reason. It's only a duty to the party. So in a way, Julia and Winston are going against the government.
ReplyDelete@Abbie I think that there is an unspoken rule that sex is not supposed to be enjoyable and its only purpose is to produce offspring as a duty to the party. Therefore, by having sex for pure enjoyment she is going against the party and what it stands for.
ReplyDeleteAlthough they might be just getting together for sex I think sooner or later they will relaize that there is actually something more to their relationship.
ReplyDelete@Kara: Maybe she gets a thrill from sneaking around with Winston. She doesn't really care whats going on, and usually just says "Why does this matter to me?" when Winston asks her questions about the Party.
ReplyDeleteI think that Julia wants to test what kinds of things she can do to get into the gov to find other rebels, and people to help her with the revolution...maybe.
ReplyDeleteI think Winston and Julia have the ability to change the society. I think Winston will inspire Julia to actually voice her opinion and make a change and I think that Julia will inspire Winston to not be so scared and do what he wants. I think if they didnt have eachother I dont think they could do anything to change on there own.
ReplyDeleteGrace makes a really good point! Julia is like an extension to the diary. Winston's rebellion seems to be growing. First it was just writing in the diary and now that Julia has come along, it's rebelling through action.
ReplyDeleteI find myself in relation to Julia as the complete antithesis of everything she stands for. About going against authority, being a rebel, and testing her limits. Of course I do not find myself in the same situation as Julia and the world she lives in but I do think that going against the party with sex is not the best way to go, why aggrivate the party? What do you gain? Only self satisfaction nothing moving society torward a better tomorrow. I would rather make a difference and be a marter, than go angainst the Party in such a manner as she does.
ReplyDelete@Kara- But what are her intentions when it comes to having sex with Winston? What is she trying to get at?
ReplyDeleteIf this book was to warn of the future and predict what could happen in 1984, what does Winston's relationship with Julia have to do with that?
ReplyDelete@ Abbie: Yes it probably could effect her future. Like Emma said, I think that they believe that the best purpose of sex is to create babies.
ReplyDelete@ Mark: I think that they found a spot that nobody would find them is because public sex would be awkward, especially if somebody else was there. I don't necessarily think that they are hiding from the government.
If Julia has already had sex with other party officials, what happened to them? Did they get affected at all by having sex with her or did there attitudes change toward the party like Winston?
ReplyDeleteIf Julia is just using Winston for sex how long do you think it will last and do you think that Julia would rat out Winston to the thought police in order to save herself?
ReplyDeleteMegan: That's true. The government takes away the pleaure from sex, and makes it seem like a horrible thing to do it for pleasure. Like with Katherine... Winston said that when they had sex "for the duty of the party" she never really enjoyed it. Actually, quoting the book, it says that "she just submitted".
ReplyDelete@Emily- That is very true, but why did they have to get away from the hidden mics???
ReplyDelete@Mark. I dont think she has any intentions with having sex and I think she will evolve into having meaning behind the sex.
ReplyDeleteAdressing Mortiz's question.. I think that the sex Winston and Julia are having is different from "doing your duty to the party" because Julia has the instinctual desire, while ones who do it for the party dont have the desire anymore because the government has dirtied the idea so much.
ReplyDelete@Megan, I think that Julia will keep "using" Winston as long as she knows that neither of them are in trouble with the Thought Police. When she first thinks that he's in any bit of trouble, she will leave him.
ReplyDelete@Kara- What do you mean by "evolving into having meaning behind the sex?
ReplyDelete@ Mark: I think that hiding from the government was only a small dose of the reason they were hiding but I have a feeling it also had something to do with the weirdness of public sex.
ReplyDeleteMrs. Moritz is right, like when I see my brothers, they look the same to me as they did when I was five. Julia, I think, won't ever get to that point with Winston. They have already had sex with each other and I think she is just using him. Relationships take a while to form and I don't think that jumping straight to that right off the bat can allow type of relationship to form.
ReplyDelete@Kara I think that Julia passes on to other men whenever she feels intrested or attracted to someone else or they just get vaporized for thoughts against the government.
ReplyDeleteMortiz: We judge people automatically sometimes. what makes me suspicious is that Julia wrote to Winston "I love you." But if he wasn't so attractive, then why, of all people, would she chose him? She didn't even know him at all or knew what he was like. It makes me think that she is just using him for sex.
ReplyDeleteI think they just want to rebel against the party. Sometimes, being told not to do something just makes us want to do it more. I remember at my old school we couldn't chew gum but that just made us do it more because we thought it was "so bad".
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI think that their reputation will last for a long time, if not for the rest of their lives. First impressions last.
ReplyDeleteI still think that over time they are going to become closer. If you are giving yourself to somebody (sex) multiple times I think you do become closer. I think often, as people get older they get a divorce because their sex isn't as good. On the other hand, those that stay together through that time do become in a lot of ways closer and have a deeper relationship.
ReplyDeleteIt is very sad that now in our soecity we judge so easily. If maybe she never judged, the world could (not to sound cheesy) be a much better place.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Corey, we all want everything right now, and that changes everyone's first impressions, we don't even consider other ideas, it's almost peer pressure(in the "story" Moritz was telling).
ReplyDeleteI agree with zach but I also think people can change and if people try to get to know someone again there reputation can change.
ReplyDeleteI believe that you think that you imagine someone differently then the first impression. But you never do, it will always be in the back of your mind and you will remember it sooner or later.
ReplyDelete@Haley: That is completely true. I completely agree with the concept of rebelling. We couldn't chew gum at my school and then you would look around and see people passing around gum.
ReplyDeleteBack to 1984, I think that Julia and Winston have this typical urge to rebel that everybody has inside of them.
With what Mikayla said, I think that Orwell put her in the book for more than just a "one nighter" type of girl. She's going to have to serve a better purpose.
ReplyDelete@ Zach I think that a first impressions are important and do tend to last for a while, but if you actually try to get to know that person, your opinion of them might change because you'll see them as a person instead of just a rumor or a topic of gossip.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Moritz that their relationship won't last because there is no emotion or feelings behind their relationship. I think that wwhen they become exhausted of eachother Julia will move on to another rebellious man.
ReplyDelete@Zach, first impressions do last but they can be covered up. I have a friend that I met 2 years ago but I wasn't friends with her until a year after that. My first impression of her was "Quiet and shy." Now, She's my loudest friend and when I see her, I don't think about that first impression.
ReplyDelete@Mrs. Morritz How do you know? I'm going to be the devil's advicate. Couldn't it last if you only see each other for sex. Then, once they get bored the relationship doesn't have to continue and they would both be happy.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Zach and Kara, people are labeled all the time. We see some girl in the hall who is always with a guy, or is dressed in revealing clothes and we atomatically think that girl is dumb and only cares about boys. It's so easy to judge people and once we judge someone it's hard to break away from that. I'm not saying that I never jugde people, because I know I do, but I believe it is important to knock that habbit. In this book I think that's what everyone is doing all the time, especially the thought police who become suspicious of the people who look rebellious.
ReplyDeleteI think that there relationship will evolve into something despite a beginning that was too quick. They have more in common than they know and I think that will keep them together and appreciative of eachother.
ReplyDeleteReputataions appear to be set in stone but I think that they can change, If the person with the reputation truely wantes it to. What makes reputations so hard to change is not the actual person with the rep but all the people that have excepted that rep and will always reffer to the rep as a part of that person.So that is why people have to be careful about how they start their image from the beginning because inevitably it sticks with them forever, whether they want it to or not.
ReplyDelete@Kara.. But who would try to get to know someone again if they already know their bad reputation?
ReplyDelete@ Emma - I agree. I have had many people give me a first impression that has changed (sometimes quickly). It just can take a long time for that change to occur for some people.
ReplyDeleteKind of like what has been said, first impressions aren't the final impression. If you actually get to know the person, you might learn a lot about them. Some people don't quite show their true personality the first time they meet somebody also. For example, the first time I meet people, I am really quiet. The better I get to know you, the more I start to talk.
ReplyDelete@Megan, but what if they find the emotion before they become exhausted?
ReplyDelete@Holly, How do we know that they have more in common? They might have a lot in common, but what if they don't? Will they just leave each other?
ReplyDeleteWhy did Orwell include Julia in the book? How does she impact the story and the message that Orwell is trying to send?
ReplyDelete@Nicole: I agree and disagree. I agree that you are in charge of your reputation, but it is the people who keep the reputation. I think that even if you move on, the people around you are the ones who keep the [bad] reputation alive.
ReplyDelete@Dan--with the possibility of completely embarrassing myself---it's exhausting. You cannot maintain a completely physical relationship for a very long period of time. Plus, you would get bored.
ReplyDelete@Megan: So if Julia is going to move on to another rebellious man after she gets board with Winston, then where is that going to leave Winston? And if so then Julia would seem like a pointless character, to the story if fshe just picks up and leaves, right?.
ReplyDelete@Sydney I think they will only be able to find emotion in their relationship if they slow down and really think about their relationship as more than just an affair and that is not what Julia wants.
ReplyDelete@mark. Well i believe in second chances. Bad choices dont make the person. We judge on bad choices not who people really are.
ReplyDelete@ Nicole: I agree with complete reputation changes. I know some people who were once the total nerd who are now the popular kids. However, people don't forget the person you once were.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Natalie. She definitly would not choose to have sex with somone who is not on her side. Great point.
ReplyDelete@Megan - I think Orwell included Julia in the book because she seems to symbolize rebellion and free thought, which are the basis of the story.
ReplyDelete@Megan, Julia is included in the book, maybe, to spark the rebellion that Winston has and to amplify it so that something big in the story will happen.
ReplyDeleteWhat is Julia going to do once she gets bored with Winston? Is it worth all this effort, hiding, lying, sneaking for her? This is a lot of work for - what I think - such a small reward, so do you think she will go through this again after, or has she done this before, Winston?
ReplyDeleteIf she just leaves because she's "bored" then what would she have done in the novel? I think that something has to happen. My opinion is that 1. She'll actually fall in the love with Winston and they will plan to fight the soceity, or 2. she will turn him in somewhere. Something has to happen.
ReplyDelete@Megan...How do we know that Julia doesn't want more than an affair?
ReplyDelete@Kara- I COMPLETELY agree with you. So many people judge people just on what they do. The person who decided to make that decision feels bad about it, but other people view that horribly.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kara. We all have friends who have bad traits and do things that aren't necessarily right, but in the end, we learn to look past those faults. So, why can't we do this with people we judge on a first impression?
ReplyDelete@Mrs Morritz I agree that they won't continue this relationship they have, but i'm saying that when it ends, in this type of reltaionship and this type of people, it seems that it doesn't have to have an effect because they don't rely on each other. If they still want to have sex they can find somebody else. If not they don't know each other so they are not really loosing anything.
ReplyDelete@Nicole I think that Julia is put into the story to show how she thinks and believes in rebeling against the party, although it's not very effective and is just for pure satisfaction so if she does leave Winston her part in the story would not be for nothing.
ReplyDelete@abbie- i think that she would move on. To me, she doesnt seem like the type to become attached to something so much she cant let go. I believe that she would move on until she found something/someone else to occupy her time.
ReplyDelete@Rebecca. I dont think people want to rebel. People are c omforted by structure and schedule. Rebeling would make everyone vulnerable and in a whole new state of mind, which is scary and it is just easier to have people tell you what to think. We view this as horrible but they dont know what it is like to think on there own and its terrifying just like having somone control our thoughts is terrifying to us.
ReplyDelete@Emily, that is such a good point! I belive that people can completely turn their reputation around, it takes time but it can be done. There will be people who won't forget who you were, but that's good because it makes people realize that they can always change too, for better or worse.
ReplyDeleteWhen Winston asks Julia about serious questions, she just replies with "It doesn't matter to me." It makes you wonder if you, right now, in this soecity, should be questioning certain things. Are we blinded by something? Should we be the ones questioning the government, or should we just let them do what they do? I know that our soceity isn't as awful as 1984's soceity... but still, should we be questioning how things work?
ReplyDelete@Megan, I think she wants some kind of emotional relationship with someone, and she wants it to be with Winston. They don't have time or resources to have "dates" and get to know each other, so they have to do what they can.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that they can overthrow the govenment. The only way that this government could be overthrown is by another power. Just like in WWII only other countries could stop Germany's rise to power.
ReplyDeleteEverytime Julia and Winston meet there seems the be a physical reminder that they are dipping themselves in a world before the Revolution,and the life that is now banned; such as the real chocolate and the real coffee... these black market items slowly bring Winston back to a time he cannot pin down exactly but faintly remembers these "real" items have to have some relevance to Julia and Winston's relationship, do think they matter or are just thrown into the plot?
ReplyDelete@Holly If Julia wanted more than just an affair she wouldn't feel like every time they're together they need to have sex. She would be content in just getting to know and be with Winston.
ReplyDeleteWinston and Julia can't overthrow the government by themselves, or even with the help of a hundred or more government workers. They are too regulated and blinded. Hope is in the proles, as Winston says, they have to do the revolution. Maybe winston and Julia will prompt them.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Becca, Julia wants to think she's rebelling, if only in her own little world.
ReplyDelete@Kara eventually some people will get tired of that same schedule every day and will want a change. Ex: Winston, Julia, and all the other people who disagree with the government
ReplyDelete@Daniel--but wasn't your original post 'why couldn't they maintain that type of relationship'? I agree with you that if that kind of relationship is all they seek, they can just go find another person and start all over again.
ReplyDeleteIf they really want to be with each other, why don't they leave the party and go to live with the proles where they are not monitored?
ReplyDelete@Syndey But if they really just wanted to be toghether don't you think they would get to know and become close to one another in some of the time they use to have sex?
ReplyDelete@Disscusion group..."we all need somebody to lean on."
ReplyDelete@Michaela - You bring up a good point. Personally, i think people DO question how things work everyday! It's nearly impossible to have a form of government where everyone is happy and in a country where we have the rights to free speech/petition/etc, i am sure people are questioning our government today.
ReplyDelete@Daniel, Would the other countries have the guts to take on this country to overthrow them completely? This country is always at war and they seem to win a lot
ReplyDeleteLike what rebecca said, I think that he just wants to be happy, but he's getting to attached to Julia for his own good. In the book he says: "The paperweight was the room he was in, and the coral was Julia's life and his own, fixed in a sort of eternity at the heart of the crystal." It seems like he is stuck in an eternity with her now, and maybe he's going to get disappointed if Julia leaves soon.
ReplyDelete@Michaela M: We do question our government and our way of life all the time, we have constant debates over politics and corruption. Plus I do not believe that we are quite spoken people, if somethings up someones talking about.
ReplyDelete@Zach, where would they get the resources, or the power to get the proles to overthrow Big Brother? How would the proles know what to do?
ReplyDelete@Moritz, I think they don't go live with the proles because Julia is focusing on her "career" with The Party and they aren't committed to each other, so it wouldn't be worth it for them to move and live together.
ReplyDelete@Moritz- Thats a good point. This relates back to where they are doing it against the Party. They also have jobs and work in the area, so they would loose a lot if they left.
ReplyDelete@Moritz, I think that they aren't going to go live in the proles because if he just left his work and his house to be in the proles, that would be pretty suspicious.
ReplyDelete@Sydney - I don't know, but we are all guessing at how/what they will do, right? Maybe there is more that we don't know about yet...
ReplyDelete@Maria: But it makes me wonder if we are too oblivious to question serious matters. I mean something such as conspiracy theories that we don't know are true, but question once and move on. Is there a "Winston" in our world, and are we just the proles?
ReplyDelete@Moritz There is too much risk in going to live with the proles. By leaving the party they're announcing that the don't want to be in the party and work for the good of all society.
ReplyDelete@Megan, I guess but they are just so excited to know that they both like each other, so it's not the best choice...but that's what they're doing.
ReplyDelete@Mrs. Moritz I guess that I meant that they could continue this relationship until they both don't want to, but I personally hope that having sex has a large effect on them, and they would become closer and rely on each other because of it. Part of me doubts it though. If they don't put the effort in to know each other I don't think that they will. They won't need each other.
ReplyDelete@Haley- Yes everyone needs something to lean on.
ReplyDelete@Nicole: Yes, but what if it's something we don't have enough information to have a valid debate over? Politics are politics. What if this is something we don't have total acess to? I'm not saying something like this exists. It only makes me wonder if we are like the proles but don't know it.
ReplyDeleteI agree with rebecca. I think the reason they broadcast Goldstein and keep him around shows that they have enemies and what there saying is wrong and the society needs to work together to keep those enemies out.
ReplyDeleteI have a feeling that since Winston and Julia's relationship has no emotional aspects that it is like "their duty against the party" not really for their enjoyment just a productive way to take out steam against the party.
ReplyDelete@Megan The proles aren't regulated stricktly by the government. I think they could hide, but they couldn't start a revolution there.
ReplyDelete@Daniel- Yes. I totally agree with you. Once they are bored of having sex, what other factor will make them want to stay together? I feel that this will be a very important conflict throughout the book.
ReplyDelete@Mark, After they get bored with sex, I don't think that they will stay together.
ReplyDeleteWe do need something to lean on, if not then we would question ourselves on plenty of matters, because without some serious backup to lean on. Kind of like we wouldn't have a "Plan B".
ReplyDeleteI think that this book has some major differences from Hitler. I think people in Germany knew what was going on, were terrified by it and wanted to help but couldnt. I think these people are completley ignorant on what is going on. Even Winston and Julia dont know what happens to all these people that "dissapear".
ReplyDelete@Kara, I agree, they need to have an enemy for the public to hate so that they don't turn and hate Big Brother.
ReplyDelete@Kelsie- Yes thats what I was saying!
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think the room over Charrington's shop will do to further Winston and Julia's "relationship"?
ReplyDeleteRefeering to Rebecca's comment: What has the Party given them? Stew with questionable meat inside? Telescreens to let the Party watch you 24/7? I think they've given them nothing expect the proof that, according to their slogan, "Freedom is slavery".
ReplyDelete@Nicole, the lack of emotion is a really good point, I'm not sure yet but I like the idea.
ReplyDelete@ Kelsie & Mark: I agree with that. There will be nothing for them do.
ReplyDelete@Micheala I think that although most people really monitor the government and their actions, many people don't see as their government really impacting their lives and therefore, don't question the government as much as they should. But in America we are fortunate enough to have the freedom of questioning our government.
ReplyDeleteI think that this room will hopefully give them a place to connect, but if nothing else a place to hide.
ReplyDeleteHe trusts Charrington because he is a prole, because he is selling illegal things to Party workers, although maybe he would turn him in for more money for the shop(?)
ReplyDelete@Michaela - I would actually say no to your Winston question. Because nowadays media is SO revealing that us average American people can know most of the government affairs inside and out if we wanted to. Not to cut down our government, but I dont think they have the resources to hide big things from the public completely.
ReplyDeleteI think that Mr. Charrington is a questionable character. He seems kind, yes. He also seems to anything for a dollar, including giving a room for Julia and Winston. You don't think he doesn't know whats going on?
ReplyDelete@Moritz, the room could be used as a place for them to hide if the government decides to get them.
ReplyDeleteI agree with jack. the point of the thought police is to make everyone scared of them so that they dont step out of line or break the rules.
ReplyDelete@daniel, do you mean a place to connect on a different level than sex? Like to actually find things they have in common and have a real relationship?
ReplyDeleteSydney- I don't think that Charrington would turn in Winston, if that's what you were saying.
ReplyDelete@Daniel, I agree that it could be somewhere to further their emotional relationship.
ReplyDelete@Maria: That's true. It's not like we have telescreens to be watched all the time. I just don't want to be a clueless person, that's all.
ReplyDeleteThey could wipe their memory. Just saying.
ReplyDelete@Kara I agree this is different than the holocaust. What Hitler did to the Jews was genocide not government control. Yes the government does kill people but not in mass numbers and they don't target a specific race.
ReplyDeleteLast thoughts??? QUIETLY put your computers back.
ReplyDelete@Michaela M:Our government is for the people, by the people, adn of the people so democracy actually treating the people like proles is a scary idea. Just like beong unconciously ingnorant(what the proles are), because you don't know what you don't know... but I have a feeling if we didn't know what the gov. was up to our lives would become more like life in 1984 but this hasn't happened, life in 1984 is a duty not a gift not full of all the joys that we encounter today. So if everyday life starts to alter run for cover but I am confinent that we as a whole people can pull through and ensure that the gov. is truthful (to a certain degree)and our lives secure.
ReplyDelete