I think that Julia really knows how to play the system and get around all the strict rules. So far Winston and Juilia both know how to work the system so I'm sure there are many others like this, especially within the Proles.
I think there are a lot of rebellious youths like Julia. The ones who are rebellious but aren't as careful as Julia are vaporized which is why we don't see that many rebellious youths in 1984.
I agree with Peter. This is in a way hinting that if these two people are breaking the law, then there are most likely people we are unaware of that are breaking the law as well.
I believe this is completely true. We always hear about police officers that end up committing the worst crimes. This creates a lot of controversy and makes you question who to trust.
Remember, "If you follow the little laws, you can break the big ones." Being a rule-follower is often a cover for breaking major rules in our soiety. Just look at politiciians. They make they laws, so they have to be above them, right? They follow the rules until they are in a position to abuse them.
I agree with Cassie. I think that all the kids who are raised by “good” party members will believe that the government is the best and raise children with those beliefs and the cycle will continue until all opposition is gone.
I believe that people will do things to get away with other things. Many people use sex to bribe through with things. Julia is not necessarily bribing Winston for anything, she is just abusing her role in the Junior Anti-Sex League and taking advantage of the people around them, like @mmoritz said.
I also think it's not only society. It's right next to us. The whole idea of 'plastic smiles' is seen all over the place. Including in our school, homes, and community at large. Many people manipulate and lie about who they really are to cover up the bad, as seen in '1984'. Julia's sash was i cover up for who she really is, a sexual being.
I think people during these times do use covers like the type of people in the book's society. There are many people in our society where they take advantage of their job because of the respect they recieve from this specific role
I do beleive that in both our society and 1984's, people use there jobs to get away with things. Who would think innocent Julia is such a sex crazed young women when she volunteers for the Anti-Sex group regularly!
I think that people use covers in order to get what they want, but most of these people show who they really are in the end. We're learning about WW2 in history and people who hid behind the idea of communism gained so much power that the idea of communism was swept away. I feel like this is alot like the society in 1984, but not with Winston and Julia.
I agree with Cloe, I think that everyone has a cover and many people take advantage of that. I think that it is very common, but people almost so used to it, they don't realize it until something drastic happens.
I do think that people will do a job just to get away with certain things. Some people get access to information and power over people that they take advantage of. I really like the bad priest example and I feel that it is very true that many people use a fake mask or cover up for their identity.
I think that often time’s today people are something they are not seen as. People pretend to be someone different because they want to “fit in”. This is just like what Julia is doing, only she has more on the line then kids do today
Cloe: no, I don't think one always becomes one with their society if they are constantly exposed to it. As an atheist conservative, I'm definately in the minority. I find it difficult, yes, to retain my beliefs when no one else thinks like me, but I'm definately able to keep my own ideas.
I think that the brainwashed people in this society can dominate, and they do, and the minority (the people that know more than they should) will play their roles as an innocent member of the world, but subtley revolt against the government.
The citizens are immersed in the two minutes hate, they are listening to the ideas and words of Goldstein but their hate for him is so much more powerfull and overpowering the idea of listening to the ideas would be in their eyes, unspeakable.
I think that if someone is exposed to something for a long time, they will start to believe what they hear even if they are opposed to it in the beginning.
Being emersed by something doesn't automatically mean you will suddenly have the same beliefs. Some teens today are around drugs and alcohol a lot, but still manage not to give in to the peer pressure. Some do give in, but some have the will power not to. Something doesn't ALWAYS have to 'rub off on you'. There are ways not to give into the pressure.
well I think that the people who get vaporized are people who have the capabitlity and potential to question the government even if you are a strong supporter of the government. It's anyone who has the POTENTIAL.
@troy, it is natural instinct for people to want to fit in, and to NOT stand out. Its almost as though the government is manipulating society physiologically to the point where they live in fear of being an individual.
Extroverted smart people are definately the most dangerous. Take all dictators for instance. They were all extremely smart men. To be a leader, one must be more than just a people person: they must be a manipulater.
I agree with @Maria h. Winston has the potential to challenge the system. Even if he is with the wrong people (that challenge the system), it will rub off on him and become his ideas.
I agree with Eric and Maria, and he will challlenge the system at some point soon, and maybe even succeed, but I don't think it's likely. I think he will end up being brainwashed by the government like all the other innocent citizens.
I somewhat disagree with you, @Joe R. Introverts have much more time to scheme against the government. Even though one may be an extrovert, they're not necessarily around the wrong people all the time. Introverts, I think, are more likely to rebel because they have more time alone to plan.
Peter has a good point. people always fall into te flow of things no matter what if others are doing it too. I personally think that peer pressure and not wanting to defy really shapes a person, so people like Winston and Julia are really unique.
peter, I agree. But sometimes people say they agree even though the know that it is not true.
Or could it be possible that someone is saying things to try to fit in and eventually they believe in what they are saying and forget what they once thought.
@Joe R- I completely agree with you, the leaders are not only smart but manipulaters too. The power of manuipulation is so strong, and we say we have the power to make our own decisions and we do, but to an extent. If the leader is a good enough manipulater, you will have no choice because the leader is controlling your every aciton.
I've heard the same story that Peter has, and I think it relates weel with double think, you have to do what society wants, while still being able to remember the truth.
@Peter, the social persuasion thig is really scary. People get into a system and start believing the government and their fellow peers to the extent that they wouldd lose their common sense. And I really agree with Katie, who you are is really shaped upon who and what you surround yourself with.
I agree with Katie- everyone has the want to fit in, it's human nature. Some will even go to extremem measures just to fit in. I also think that the people you are around most can be very influential, but as i said earlier, EVERYONE is not eventually going to be influenced. Some are, but some aren't.
I agree with Katie's point that people don't want to be different or outcasted from their society. People are influenced and judged by the people around them, and I think especially in this society portrayed in the book, no one wants to be different than the government and it's views. Everyone is following the views, therefore no one wants to be discriminated against because of their views.
@Eric I think it definately goes both ways. Extroverted people have the power to manipulate others. Therefore they are the leaders. Introverts are more likely to rebel and extroverts are more like to try to change the system by gaining followers. In that way, extroverts don't rebel relatively because they have the majority.
I think that peer pressure is HUGE in our society. I think that one role of leadership will and can influence multiple people. It takes smart people, too, to dictate and make it possible for so many people to follow others. It is just easier to know there is someone "like you".
I think that people are afraid of feeling lonely. That is the reason for why people conform to their surroundings and change who they are. No one ever wants to be alone.
@Madeline: That's not the point I was trying to get across. I think people that go against the grain have less power. The only way to have power is to conform until you have the oportunity to change the system.
At the beginning of the revolution it was about fitting in, but once they got in the grove of the leaders they were following, these actions were no longer just trying to fit in, but a way of life..
I think people can change depending on the people you are with. I think it is scary how much people change because of this. People you thought you knew can change so fast when they start to hang out with someone else. Watching someone else going through this is the scariest part because when you do it you don’t notice. People only notice other people changing, not them self’s.
@Emily: The fact that they use fear to control people doesn't make them not smart. I think it makes them even smarter, albeit morally wrong. There is always this war of what's effective versus what's "right".
joe- I agree. People have to be manipulative in order to be a leader. They have to manipulate people to THINK that they are smart and worthy of leadership
@Joe- And what's effective always wins. Think of how Hitler used the mass gas chambers during World War II and how they would just get bigger and bigger until they gassed up to 12,000 or so people a day, just because it was more effective than, say, shooting them all individually as he originally thought of.
Winston is introverted. He doesn't like to talk to people or pursue happiness. Then again, the Party forces everyone to be introverted. If they were extroverted about their ideas and ideosyncracies, they would be vaporized.
I defiantly believe Winston is interverted also. He is shy and does not go out of his way to please people and make friends. Maybe once he gets to know a person like Julia, he becomes more extroverted.
@Eric- I think he is more introverted in public so as not to draw much attention to himself, and then later on at night he is more extroverted to fulfill his desires.
@Macyb- Introvert-people who spend time alone and would rather be alone. Extrovert-People who prefer being around friends or other people rather than being alone.
@Outercircle- If Julia is involved in the government, do you think O'brien is too? Or at least involved in the government... Can Winston trust either of them?
@Joe R. That's not what I was trying to get at. I was trying to say that they gain power because people are scared of disagreeing because of what might happen to them but then there are people who don't care what might happen to him.
@Eric S. I think that Winston is introverted- a challenger of the system. At first I think it's just an act of lust and rebellion but I think that as the bond between Julia and Winston grow, it no loonger means the same thing.
Maybe the sash is her cover for being the thought police? Though I agree with chloe- that i don't think even the thought police would be able to get away with an affair like theirs, even though they try to hide it. It could all be a cover though, even the sex, just to get close to Winston.
@Madeline: Yes I agree. The effecctive side always wins. That's why we lost in Vietnam and continue to lose in the Middle East. We lose because we have morals. That's the trouble with being rightious. I'm not saying being moral is wrong, but I do believe it's ineffective.
I think that Winsoton isn't caught by the thought police because maybe they want to see him more or its simply because he plays nice in front of the telescreens but outside of them breaks the rules, so hes in a sense invisible.
@KaibinO- I think that they can get away with though crimes because everyday they have to vaporize people who commit thought crimes. By knowing what their thought crimes were, the idea is planted and in some of the thought police, the idea might grow. They might have the ideas they just might also know how not to get noticed.
@Abbyk- I don't know about O'Brien. He has vaguely been mentioned in the story and we don't have enough information to question him... I do think Julia is part of the forces like the thought police because of instinct.
@Joe- I completely agree. The morality and honor of the soldiers overseas prevents them from being the raving murders that they could be. But would you rather them be cautious and moral, and have a long-lasting war, or have them be immoral and go around killing anyone and everyone who seems suspicious, and have the war over in maybe a couple of months?
I agree that Winston is awkward. When the neighbors needed help he was okay with helping, but awkward and didn't talk the whole time. He didn't even respond to the mother, who was obvioulsy overwhelmed. I think he lost most of his emotion when katherine left him.
In movies we do not notice the townspeople in the background because they are not very interesting next to the main character. In 1984 I think Winston acts the part of a townsperson on screen but becomes the main character breaking the rules off screen. No one sees the off screen version of Winston so he is invisible...until he draws attention to himself by an action he mistakingly does on screen or in front of the telescreens.
It seems like Big Brother can pick up on EVERYTHING that people do and think in that society. How would the government really be able to keep tabs on every single person? That seems unrealistic to me, although, that whole society is unrealistic to a certain extent.
@KaibinO- I think at this point anybody could be a thought police, because we know so little about O'Brian, and little details from the inside of the thought police.
Obviously I would rather them kill only the peoplpe that need to be killed. However, I don't think there should have been a war in the first place in both instances. War is messy-- civilian morality doesn't really apply. The whole point of a war is to kill the enemy. There really is no way of doing that humanely. I don't think there should be war. And when there is, it should be as airtight and effective as possible in order to secure peace in the future for both parties rather than dragging it out as long as possible.
@Joe- I obviously agree, and it makes me think of how they did it in te 18th century: a civil war. They all lined up on opposite si.des of a battlefield, marched towards each other, and THEN started shooting. No civilians were harmed that way, and that may not be the most effective way, but it was certainly one way to keep them from killing anyone and everyone
@emmaj- The people that "should be killed" are the people that "wrong" your country in any way. Even if there was a good side and a bad side, the citizens stick by their country with pride.
@Emma: The enemy should be killed, or at least detained. How effective would the Allied campaign have been in WWII if they were too afraid to kill the enemy for moral reasons?
Facebook connects to 1984 because anyone can see anything. Future bosses, college teachers...honestly anyone can see exactly what you post because of how much society has changed. And they can immediately make an inference about you.
Technology has gotten a little overboard I think to the point that we rely on it for everything. I know that 90% of my homework is on the computer, and everyone has spent time on it. So if we were monitored, everything about our lives could be seen.
There is a connection between 1984 and facebook, but on facebook you can choose what you post online. Some people are not smart about what they do post, but at least there is a choice. In 1984, there is no choice on what the government knows about you. They watch you so that everything you do is known, nothing is a choice.
Troy was saying that the society in 1984 is nothing like ours but I have to disagree. The loss of privacyis simalar though it may not be as drastic. The government has the ABILITY to look at our texts, facebooks, etc.
The advancement of technology these days is very scary :( the ammount of privacy we have has been reduced drastically and i feel that we are so exposed to everything and enyone is exposed to us. Kids and really just everyone need to be careful about what they put on the Internet because like peter said, it is ALWAYS going to be there no matter if you press "delete"
@OuterCircle- Do you think Julia putting on her makeup was trying to hide something? Or trying to make her appeal more to Winston by masking her real face?
What about Julia's past has changed her to this moment in time. She shared a little about her Grandpa...do you think anything else has happened to make her rebel?
@Joe- An interesting point, no doubt! I mean, the advances in technology, yet we are monitered constantly by the government so we don't get out of line? And the semi-inhumane wars that drag on for almost decades?
Julia- I'm not sure if I like her. I don't know that Winston should trust her. But either way, she is good at faking identities. I don't know if she belongs to the thought police or if she is a rebellious youth.
@Eric- I don't think julia puts on makeup to mask herself. Most women put on makeup to make themselves feel more beautiful. Some, i'll admit, try to mask their face. But a little makeup isn't a mask, to me, it's that extra boost of confidence.
@Emily they have the ability but they don't, they wont read a normal teenagers text. Also are society is very different. Why this book is popular is due to the fact that any society can relate to this book. Society's have the ability to become '1984' but it dose not mean they are like the society.
@Eric- I think her putting on makeup was her trying to feel good about herself and attract Winston. It defiantly worked too. Maybe she knows how un attractive she is, and wanted to proove she could be pretty.
Do you think that how Winston apparently starts to remember his past is since he just decided to think about it? Maybe we could remember more if we actually tried to recall our past? That knowledge could help the society in "1984"
@ Michael, I think that in this changing society people start to try to live in the 'now' and that causes people to forget about their past and tradition. Instead, we begin to accelerate into a technological era.
I think that Winston will feel more atachment towards Julia than she will feel towards him. I do think that they will stick together though, and be together.
I agree that the kids are more raised by the government. There are so many kid programs, like the spies, for kids to be exposed to the government. This reminds me of Hitler’s Youth, because kids were so exposed to Hitler’s ideas and were taught to follow along with him.
@KateE- This story shows that he knew he loved his wife deep down. He just couldn't push her because he knew that he loved her. Julia, although, is very bad for him and his response to her (that he should have so he could be with her) shows that he changed a lot ever since he met her. I can relate this to annoying teenage relationships where couples say, "I should have met you 5 years ago and gotten married! We're perfect for each other!" Even though this is exaggerating, Julia is not good for Winston because she is and will change him for the worse.
I think that Julia really knows how to play the system and get around all the strict rules. So far Winston and Juilia both know how to work the system so I'm sure there are many others like this, especially within the Proles.
ReplyDeleteI think there are a lot of rebellious youths like Julia. The ones who are rebellious but aren't as careful as Julia are vaporized which is why we don't see that many rebellious youths in 1984.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Peter. This is in a way hinting that if these two people are breaking the law, then there are most likely people we are unaware of that are breaking the law as well.
ReplyDeleteI think that there are a lot of other people trying to rebel against the system, but they don't know about each other.
ReplyDeleteI believe this is completely true. We always hear about police officers that end up committing the worst crimes. This creates a lot of controversy and makes you question who to trust.
ReplyDeleteRemember, "If you follow the little laws, you can break the big ones." Being a rule-follower is often a cover for breaking major rules in our soiety. Just look at politiciians. They make they laws, so they have to be above them, right? They follow the rules until they are in a position to abuse them.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Cassie. I think that all the kids who are raised by “good” party members will believe that the government is the best and raise children with those beliefs and the cycle will continue until all opposition is gone.
ReplyDeleteI believe that people will do things to get away with other things. Many people use sex to bribe through with things. Julia is not necessarily bribing Winston for anything, she is just abusing her role in the Junior Anti-Sex League and taking advantage of the people around them, like @mmoritz said.
ReplyDeletePeople will and have always used covers, Its a human thing to use power to get what you want.
ReplyDeleteI also think it's not only society. It's right next to us. The whole idea of 'plastic smiles' is seen all over the place. Including in our school, homes, and community at large. Many people manipulate and lie about who they really are to cover up the bad, as seen in '1984'. Julia's sash was i cover up for who she really is, a sexual being.
ReplyDeleteI think people during these times do use covers like the type of people in the book's society. There are many people in our society where they take advantage of their job because of the respect they recieve from this specific role
ReplyDeleteI do beleive that in both our society and 1984's, people use there jobs to get away with things. Who would think innocent Julia is such a sex crazed young women when she volunteers for the Anti-Sex group regularly!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI think that people use covers in order to get what they want, but most of these people show who they really are in the end. We're learning about WW2 in history and people who hid behind the idea of communism gained so much power that the idea of communism was swept away. I feel like this is alot like the society in 1984, but not with Winston and Julia.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Cloe, I think that everyone has a cover and many people take advantage of that. I think that it is very common, but people almost so used to it, they don't realize it until something drastic happens.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Cloe a little bit, but, Julia is making a joke out of government.
ReplyDeleteI do think that people will do a job just to get away with certain things. Some people get access to information and power over people that they take advantage of. I really like the bad priest example and I feel that it is very true that many people use a fake mask or cover up for their identity.
ReplyDeleteI think that Winston is accidently going too get Julia and himself caught, just because he is much less skilled in concealing his emotions.
ReplyDeleteI think that often time’s today people are something they are not seen as. People pretend to be someone different because they want to “fit in”. This is just like what Julia is doing, only she has more on the line then kids do today
ReplyDeleteCloe: no, I don't think one always becomes one with their society if they are constantly exposed to it. As an atheist conservative, I'm definately in the minority. I find it difficult, yes, to retain my beliefs when no one else thinks like me, but I'm definately able to keep my own ideas.
ReplyDeleteIts going with the group, its a lot harder to swim up stream especially when others are swimming down.
ReplyDeleteI think that the brainwashed people in this society can dominate, and they do, and the minority (the people that know more than they should) will play their roles as an innocent member of the world, but subtley revolt against the government.
ReplyDeleteThe citizens are immersed in the two minutes hate, they are listening to the ideas and words of Goldstein but their hate for him is so much more powerfull and overpowering the idea of listening to the ideas would be in their eyes, unspeakable.
ReplyDeleteI think that if someone is exposed to something for a long time, they will start to believe what they hear even if they are opposed to it in the beginning.
ReplyDeleteBeing emersed by something doesn't automatically mean you will suddenly have the same beliefs. Some teens today are around drugs and alcohol a lot, but still manage not to give in to the peer pressure. Some do give in, but some have the will power not to. Something doesn't ALWAYS have to 'rub off on you'. There are ways not to give into the pressure.
ReplyDeletewell I think that the people who get vaporized are people who have the capabitlity and potential to question the government even if you are a strong supporter of the government. It's anyone who has the POTENTIAL.
ReplyDelete@troy, it is natural instinct for people to want to fit in, and to NOT stand out. Its almost as though the government is manipulating society physiologically to the point where they live in fear of being an individual.
ReplyDeleteRHEANA- I agree with you. Julia knows what she is doing is wrong and irresponsible, however she is proceeding with her actions to fit in.
ReplyDeleteExtroverted smart people are definately the most dangerous. Take all dictators for instance. They were all extremely smart men. To be a leader, one must be more than just a people person: they must be a manipulater.
ReplyDeleteI agree with @Maria h. Winston has the potential to challenge the system. Even if he is with the wrong people (that challenge the system), it will rub off on him and become his ideas.
ReplyDelete@Emma: conversely, some teens have to power not to give in to peer pressure when they choose not to do drugs.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Eric and Maria, and he will challlenge the system at some point soon, and maybe even succeed, but I don't think it's likely. I think he will end up being brainwashed by the government like all the other innocent citizens.
ReplyDeleteI somewhat disagree with you, @Joe R. Introverts have much more time to scheme against the government. Even though one may be an extrovert, they're not necessarily around the wrong people all the time. Introverts, I think, are more likely to rebel because they have more time alone to plan.
ReplyDeletePeter has a good point. people always fall into te flow of things no matter what if others are doing it too. I personally think that peer pressure and not wanting to defy really shapes a person, so people like Winston and Julia are really unique.
ReplyDeletepeter, I agree. But sometimes people say they agree even though the know that it is not true.
ReplyDeleteOr could it be possible that someone is saying things to try to fit in and eventually they believe in what they are saying and forget what they once thought.
@EricS. Winston dose not only have the potential he is challenging the system, by writing in his journal, thinking freely, and having sex.
ReplyDelete@Joe R- I completely agree with you, the leaders are not only smart but manipulaters too. The power of manuipulation is so strong, and we say we have the power to make our own decisions and we do, but to an extent. If the leader is a good enough manipulater, you will have no choice because the leader is controlling your every aciton.
ReplyDeleteI've heard the same story that Peter has, and I think it relates weel with double think, you have to do what society wants, while still being able to remember the truth.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Joe, and people that resist the peer pressure and go against the grain have more power in a high school environment like we live in.
ReplyDelete@Peter, the social persuasion thig is really scary. People get into a system and start believing the government and their fellow peers to the extent that they wouldd lose their common sense. And I really agree with Katie, who you are is really shaped upon who and what you surround yourself with.
ReplyDelete@Rheana, i agree. People who are around others usually tend to fall into their actions also.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Katie- everyone has the want to fit in, it's human nature. Some will even go to extremem measures just to fit in. I also think that the people you are around most can be very influential, but as i said earlier, EVERYONE is not eventually going to be influenced. Some are, but some aren't.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Katie's point that people don't want to be different or outcasted from their society. People are influenced and judged by the people around them, and I think especially in this society portrayed in the book, no one wants to be different than the government and it's views. Everyone is following the views, therefore no one wants to be discriminated against because of their views.
ReplyDelete@Eric I think it definately goes both ways. Extroverted people have the power to manipulate others. Therefore they are the leaders. Introverts are more likely to rebel and extroverts are more like to try to change the system by gaining followers. In that way, extroverts don't rebel relatively because they have the majority.
ReplyDeleteI think that peer pressure is HUGE in our society. I think that one role of leadership will and can influence multiple people. It takes smart people, too, to dictate and make it possible for so many people to follow others. It is just easier to know there is someone "like you".
ReplyDeleteI think that people are afraid of feeling lonely. That is the reason for why people conform to their surroundings and change who they are. No one ever wants to be alone.
ReplyDelete@Madeline: That's not the point I was trying to get across. I think people that go against the grain have less power. The only way to have power is to conform until you have the oportunity to change the system.
ReplyDeleteAt the beginning of the revolution it was about fitting in, but once they got in the grove of the leaders they were following, these actions were no longer just trying to fit in, but a way of life..
ReplyDelete@joeR. Not only are dictators smart they use fear to manipulate their people.
ReplyDeleteI think people can change depending on the people you are with. I think it is scary how much people change because of this. People you thought you knew can change so fast when they start to hang out with someone else. Watching someone else going through this is the scariest part because when you do it you don’t notice. People only notice other people changing, not them self’s.
ReplyDeleteNo one wants to be alone, but inadvertently, some people are because of their indifference to the styles and natural grain of society.
ReplyDelete@Emily- I completely agree that use fear to manipulate their people but I think they first start out almost trying to 'comfort' their people.
ReplyDelete@Emily: The fact that they use fear to control people doesn't make them not smart. I think it makes them even smarter, albeit morally wrong. There is always this war of what's effective versus what's "right".
ReplyDelete@Outer Circle- Do you think Winston is introverted or extroverted? Do you think he's using sex to fulfill these desires?
ReplyDeletejoe- I agree. People have to be manipulative in order to be a leader. They have to manipulate people to THINK that they are smart and worthy of leadership
ReplyDelete@Joe- And what's effective always wins. Think of how Hitler used the mass gas chambers during World War II and how they would just get bigger and bigger until they gassed up to 12,000 or so people a day, just because it was more effective than, say, shooting them all individually as he originally thought of.
ReplyDeleteEric- what does that mean?
ReplyDelete@KateE, I think you made a really good point because when fitting in is a way of life, there is no way for people to question HOW they are living.
ReplyDeleteWinston is introverted. He doesn't like to talk to people or pursue happiness. Then again, the Party forces everyone to be introverted. If they were extroverted about their ideas and ideosyncracies, they would be vaporized.
ReplyDelete@Macy The leaders are obviously smart if they can make people are worthy of leadership.
ReplyDeleteIn today’s society we judge people by how they look. People may say that looks don’t matter, but they really do.
ReplyDeleteAre the thought police able to get away with "thought-crimes"?
ReplyDeleteI defiantly believe Winston is interverted also. He is shy and does not go out of his way to please people and make friends. Maybe once he gets to know a person like Julia, he becomes more extroverted.
ReplyDelete@Eric- I think he is more introverted in public so as not to draw much attention to himself, and then later on at night he is more extroverted to fulfill his desires.
ReplyDelete@Macyb- Introvert-people who spend time alone and would rather be alone. Extrovert-People who prefer being around friends or other people rather than being alone.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Julia loved Winston, I think that she was in love with his resentment of the party.
ReplyDelete@Outercircle- If Julia is involved in the government, do you think O'brien is too? Or at least involved in the government... Can Winston trust either of them?
ReplyDelete@Joe R. That's not what I was trying to get at. I was trying to say that they gain power because people are scared of disagreeing because of what might happen to them but then there are people who don't care what might happen to him.
ReplyDelete@Eric S. I think that Winston is introverted- a challenger of the system. At first I think it's just an act of lust and rebellion but I think that as the bond between Julia and Winston grow, it no loonger means the same thing.
Maybe the sash is her cover for being the thought police? Though I agree with chloe- that i don't think even the thought police would be able to get away with an affair like theirs, even though they try to hide it. It could all be a cover though, even the sex, just to get close to Winston.
ReplyDelete@Madeline: Yes I agree. The effecctive side always wins. That's why we lost in Vietnam and continue to lose in the Middle East. We lose because we have morals. That's the trouble with being rightious. I'm not saying being moral is wrong, but I do believe it's ineffective.
ReplyDeleteI think that Winsoton isn't caught by the thought police because maybe they want to see him more or its simply because he plays nice in front of the telescreens but outside of them breaks the rules, so hes in a sense invisible.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Winston can technically trust anyone in society, because no matter who they are, they could be secret police or spies or something.
ReplyDeleteShe dose not need evidence. Winston already came to terms with it, he knows he will eventually be killed.
ReplyDelete@KaibinO-
ReplyDeleteI think that they can get away with though crimes because everyday they have to vaporize people who commit thought crimes. By knowing what their thought crimes were, the idea is planted and in some of the thought police, the idea might grow. They might have the ideas they just might also know how not to get noticed.
I think that Winston is definitley introverted. He seems like he keeps to himself most of the time. He seems as though he is just awkward..
ReplyDelete@Abbyk- I don't know about O'Brien. He has vaguely been mentioned in the story and we don't have enough information to question him... I do think Julia is part of the forces like the thought police because of instinct.
ReplyDelete@Joe- I completely agree. The morality and honor of the soldiers overseas prevents them from being the raving murders that they could be. But would you rather them be cautious and moral, and have a long-lasting war, or have them be immoral and go around killing anyone and everyone who seems suspicious, and have the war over in maybe a couple of months?
ReplyDeleteThey DO NOT need evidence.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Winston is awkward. When the neighbors needed help he was okay with helping, but awkward and didn't talk the whole time. He didn't even respond to the mother, who was obvioulsy overwhelmed. I think he lost most of his emotion when katherine left him.
ReplyDeleteIn movies we do not notice the townspeople in the background because they are not very interesting next to the main character. In 1984 I think Winston acts the part of a townsperson on screen but becomes the main character breaking the rules off screen. No one sees the off screen version of Winston so he is invisible...until he draws attention to himself by an action he mistakingly does on screen or in front of the telescreens.
ReplyDeleteThinking about O'Brien makes me wonder about his connection with Winston. Is O'Brien possible a thought police?
ReplyDeleteThats why the society is so scary, The police dose not need evidence to kill people. It would be scary if a small sigh can be seen as rebelling.
ReplyDeleteI think the thought police are a lot like the "Beast" in LOF they rule by fear.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like Big Brother can pick up on EVERYTHING that people do and think in that society. How would the government really be able to keep tabs on every single person? That seems unrealistic to me, although, that whole society is unrealistic to a certain extent.
ReplyDelete@KaibinO- I think at this point anybody could be a thought police, because we know so little about O'Brian, and little details from the inside of the thought police.
ReplyDelete@Michael, I believe that the "Beast" is actually Big Brother.
ReplyDeleteObviously I would rather them kill only the peoplpe that need to be killed. However, I don't think there should have been a war in the first place in both instances. War is messy-- civilian morality doesn't really apply. The whole point of a war is to kill the enemy. There really is no way of doing that humanely. I don't think there should be war. And when there is, it should be as airtight and effective as possible in order to secure peace in the future for both parties rather than dragging it out as long as possible.
ReplyDelete@Joe- what defines people that "should be killed"?
ReplyDeletejoe- yes,i agree. however how is it determined who should be killed? Why should they be killed?
ReplyDelete@Joe- I obviously agree, and it makes me think of how they did it in te 18th century: a civil war. They all lined up on opposite si.des of a battlefield, marched towards each other, and THEN started shooting. No civilians were harmed that way, and that may not be the most effective way, but it was certainly one way to keep them from killing anyone and everyone
ReplyDelete@emmaj- The people that "should be killed" are the people that "wrong" your country in any way. Even if there was a good side and a bad side, the citizens stick by their country with pride.
ReplyDelete@Emma: The enemy should be killed, or at least detained. How effective would the Allied campaign have been in WWII if they were too afraid to kill the enemy for moral reasons?
ReplyDeleteFacebook connects to 1984 because anyone can see anything. Future bosses, college teachers...honestly anyone can see exactly what you post because of how much society has changed. And they can immediately make an inference about you.
ReplyDeleteTechnology has gotten a little overboard I think to the point that we rely on it for everything. I know that 90% of my homework is on the computer, and everyone has spent time on it. So if we were monitored, everything about our lives could be seen.
ReplyDeleteThere is a connection between 1984 and facebook, but on facebook you can choose what you post online. Some people are not smart about what they do post, but at least there is a choice. In 1984, there is no choice on what the government knows about you. They watch you so that everything you do is known, nothing is a choice.
ReplyDeleteTroy was saying that the society in 1984 is nothing like ours but I have to disagree. The loss of privacyis simalar though it may not be as drastic. The government has the ABILITY to look at our texts, facebooks, etc.
ReplyDelete@Madeline: Isn't it funny how far we've come, and yet how far we've gone backwards?
ReplyDeleteThe advancement of technology these days is very scary :( the ammount of privacy we have has been reduced drastically and i feel that we are so exposed to everything and enyone is exposed to us. Kids and really just everyone need to be careful about what they put on the Internet because like peter said, it is ALWAYS going to be there no matter if you press "delete"
ReplyDelete@OuterCircle- Do you think Julia putting on her makeup was trying to hide something? Or trying to make her appeal more to Winston by masking her real face?
ReplyDelete@Joe- I thought you were talking more along the lines of within our country, as in the death penalty. I misunderstood the main point.
ReplyDeleteWhat about Julia's past has changed her to this moment in time. She shared a little about her Grandpa...do you think anything else has happened to make her rebel?
ReplyDelete@Joe- An interesting point, no doubt! I mean, the advances in technology, yet we are monitered constantly by the government so we don't get out of line? And the semi-inhumane wars that drag on for almost decades?
ReplyDeleteJulia- I'm not sure if I like her. I don't know that Winston should trust her. But either way, she is good at faking identities. I don't know if she belongs to the thought police or if she is a rebellious youth.
ReplyDelete@Joe- I agree. I think that the further we go forward, the more we go back. In technology, society and everything really.
ReplyDelete@Eric- I don't think julia puts on makeup to mask herself. Most women put on makeup to make themselves feel more beautiful. Some, i'll admit, try to mask their face. But a little makeup isn't a mask, to me, it's that extra boost of confidence.
ReplyDelete@Emily they have the ability but they don't, they wont read a normal teenagers text. Also are society is very different. Why this book is popular is due to the fact that any society can relate to this book. Society's have the ability to become '1984' but it dose not mean they are like the society.
ReplyDelete@Eric- I think her putting on makeup was her trying to feel good about herself and attract Winston. It defiantly worked too. Maybe she knows how un attractive she is, and wanted to proove she could be pretty.
ReplyDelete@Eric S-
ReplyDeleteSometimes, think people use makeup to FIT IN, and being a part of society and blending is a very important aspect of life in "1984".
@EricS- Both, because masking something will make her more appealing to Winston.
ReplyDelete@Outer circler- What does the story of Winston almost pushing Katharine off the cliff and he decision not to show about himself?
ReplyDeleteI think that him forgeting his mom and sister is normal, the oldest memory I have is from when I was two, and he 25 years older than me.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that how Winston apparently starts to remember his past is since he just decided to think about it? Maybe we could remember more if we actually tried to recall our past? That knowledge could help the society in "1984"
ReplyDelete@ Michael, I think that in this changing society people start to try to live in the 'now' and that causes people to forget about their past and tradition. Instead, we begin to accelerate into a technological era.
ReplyDelete@Kate: it shows he is smart about his rebeling. HE picks his battles and knows that killing her wouldn't have solved anything.
ReplyDeleteWinston and Julia will move to make more dramatic rebel movements, who knows maybe find a secret rebel society.
ReplyDeleteI think that Winston will feel more atachment towards Julia than she will feel towards him. I do think that they will stick together though, and be together.
ReplyDeleteMurdering is a crime, however the government is above the law
ReplyDeleteI agree that the kids are more raised by the government. There are so many kid programs, like the spies, for kids to be exposed to the government. This reminds me of Hitler’s Youth, because kids were so exposed to Hitler’s ideas and were taught to follow along with him.
ReplyDelete@KateE- This story shows that he knew he loved his wife deep down. He just couldn't push her because he knew that he loved her. Julia, although, is very bad for him and his response to her (that he should have so he could be with her) shows that he changed a lot ever since he met her. I can relate this to annoying teenage relationships where couples say, "I should have met you 5 years ago and gotten married! We're perfect for each other!" Even though this is exaggerating, Julia is not good for Winston because she is and will change him for the worse.
ReplyDeleteThat's why its such a famous book it symbolizes human nature
ReplyDelete