I believe that Winston is correct when he says that the hope is in the proles because the proles make up most of the population. All they need to make a revolution is some outcast form the higher society to lead them into power.
The proles are a lot like the lower classes. They greatly outnumber those around them but don't really have the resources or desire to start a revolution.
I think Winston believes in the Proles because they are not being watched all the time and they are seen lower then everyone so no one cares what they do and no one believes they would be smart enough to do it. I think that proles could have an revolution but they would need someone like Winston and Julia because they are in the government and close to the people in power.
I think that Winston says that there is hope in the proles because the proles aren't watched as closely as the city people are and would be able to organize something, like a revolution, easier than the city people.
I don't get the proles either. Are they people that are just content with the government, and so content, that the government does not worry about them being a threat?
Makaela- I think the reason he wanted to get a diary is because he needed something to just "vent" to. There was no one that he felt comfortable to talk about the things that he writes in his diary.
I think the proles know just as much as the party members. They aren't watched though so they have a better chance of creating a ground to revolutionize.
The proles obviously outnumber The Party, but I don't think they are capable of starting a revolution, especially not at this point. They are unorganized and will live life how they want to, so I don't think they would be able to start anything effective.
I agree that there is hope in the proles, but they don't really have interest in starting a Revolution. If people were trying to get the proles to rebel, I think that the government might notice.
She is not thinking the same way he is though, because she only does bad things because she can, she doesn't want to change the society while Winston does want to chane society.
What if Julia is just bait, waiting for him to do something bad so the government can catch him in the act. Kind of like the FBI did to that guy in Seatle?
Jack- I think that Syme meant that the paroels dont function like a normal human would. The way that the paroels act is not the function that humans with freedom of thought have. Everyone has been brainwashed...
Right now, I don't think Julia really loves Winston. If his suspicions are correct and she hates him, then this could be an intricate trap to lure him into thoughtcrime. However, we don't really know a lot about Julia's motives, so it could be something completely separate.
I think that Julia says she loves Winston because they live in a world where relationships are only for the Party. They want someone who has true love and a sexual relationship because this makes them feel like they have power over the repression of the party.
Garett i think that they must have something to do with their ignorance becasue they seem to be mandatory to take so they kinda must have some purpose.
@Mikaela... Well, first she wants him for sex and secondly she could want him to join her because she might be opposed to the inner party and stuff and can tell that he is too.
I think that they might have known eachother before but then forgot that they know eachother just like everyone else forgets the past. How else could Winston have these descriptive dreams about her.
But I also think that yes, both of them want to have sex. When sex isn't really allowed in this society, only for the production of children for the Party, I think many, many people want to have sex for pleasure.
@Mikaela, I don't think that she just wants to "contribute to the party" because it seems more like she just wants to have sex with him, not make babies.
Mikaela- I think that no one is secure in this society, like in a lot of the other books that we have read. Julia could be a lot like Katherine except she doesn't want to get pregnant...
I think the author is trying to show that this is what society will become if this type of society takes over. No reltionships. People just trying to get into the others pants. This is not what we want in society.
What if the "I love you" note is just a trap to pull him into a relationship to expose him? And she said she had sex with other party members and she doesn't seem to be with them anymore.
Why did Julia want to have sex with Winston? does she want a relationship with him after, a friendship or does she see that Winston sees something wrong with this society? It seems that Winson is almost connected to Julia in a way thats deeper then just sex. He is always thinking about her and wanted to know her. Maybe Julia will change and have different intentions later?
I think that the relationship between Julia and Winston is about breaking the rules. I think that it may be one of the things that can start a revolution in 1984
@ Mikaela- I think that if she wanted to have children she would have made that more evident, but instead, like Cory said, she is just suducing him. The fact that she isn't even talking about kids or anything says that that's probably not what she wants.
Mikaela- She wants the sex to get him to do something above what he wants too... Maybe its because she is part of the Thought Police, and she is trying to get him caught??
So can the thought police be imperfect as well? It makes sense that a thought cop could get away with almost anything because they wouldnt monitor another thought cop,
@moritz if Julia was in the thought police that would change everything. Maybe Julia is just testing Winston to see if Winston is a true citizen or not. Maybe that is the her role in the party. She is a thought police but she catches people in a different way. Because Wnston is so careful of what he does, maybe thats why they would send Julia after him, because he is different from the rest.
If Julia is Thought Police... CRAP. It makes me wonder why Julia would just move from Party member to Party member if it were not for exposing them for whatever it is. Then again, she just may tire of them and want to move on. But why haven't any of the Party members she has slept with told on her?
I agree with megan, they would just kill him if they suspected him!! but there is also a possiblilty that they could be trying to get in his head and make sure that their asumptions are right.
If Juila is Thouht Police, I think that is a very peculiar way to get information out of people...especially if they don't want a relationship. I don't think that many secrets would be shared if they were just having sex. I think that a relationship is more about getting to know each other (sharing secrest).
@Griff: I read your comment earlier and I agree, because if she doesnt want to have kids, then what other reason would she have sex for... Well I think its pretty obvious, like you said, because she likes it.
@ Jack- Maybe if the thought police don't monitor each other, then could the hope really be in the thoght police? Or are they too loyal to rebel against The Party?
@garrettj In this society there is no need for evidence to convict just a bunch of bs that the people will buy if he was in a group then dissapears fear is a great motivator
The inner circle was talking about how Winston is so careful - keeping his face neutral, keeping quiet... he knows how to play the game. If Julia were just drawing him into a trap, Winston may fall even though he is normall cautious... because he's caught up in it all. Sex! Maybe love! He may stumble.
I don't think that the Government(Big Brother) owuld waste so much reasourses and time on this one worker, just to make sure they don't kill an innocent, its the opposite of thier policies. espessially if Julia is thought police.
If Julia is the thought police, wouldn't she already have enough information to kill Winston. They kill people for a lot less, just because they seem bad. She could easily have put him away. It seems more likely to me that O'brien is a part of the thought police. He seems different and he comes to talk to him only after he has only done very bad things.
@ Mikaela- Yes thats very true! If she actually started to fall in love with him, then they would both be on the same team. The bad guy (girl) becomes good and helps the good guy out. Maybe this could turn into the same situation...
I think Winston isn't worried about Julia's intentions. He's hoping to have a real love, but he's already predicted his own death...why would he not take a chance on a good possibility?
That is an interesting thought. Do the proles really not know that the people that win the lottery dont actually get the money. I think the proles wouldnt want to rebel either because they never talk to people from the government. When winston walked in the bar everyone was stunned that he was there. No prole is really connected to anyone from the party so they would not really go what is going on.
@mark when you responded to me I thought of this she may just like it because it is a release there are no sports or anything to channel yourself into in the book
Garrett - I disagree with your idea that males do most of the seducing. Is that based on movies you've seen? How do we know who always seduces? It is definitely either way.
I think that because Winston's society is so restriced, just a little bit looser struceter is what he considers freedom. Our society is way more free than theirs.
I think that some proof that overthrowing government doesn't work very well is in the movie Valkyrie. The plan was very well thought out and it still didn't work in the end. Also if you don't succeed then you are likley to get killed.
@ Mark - I'm not sure that it would turn to "love" per say,(they may get introuble if they fall in love) but what if she decides to not rat him out? How could that change the course of the book, Winson's life, the Thought Police?
I think that the goverment in this society makes it seem like they have rights. for example, they have the "right" to do two minutes of hate. They dont know any better than what they have.
I think that America has a similar idea of freedom. At the start of America we basiclly said freedom if the ability to say God exists. It is not that much different than the ability to say that two plus two does equal four. Over time I think that we have thought of freedom differently than before.
I agree with Rebecca. There may be alot of people that dont agree with what the government is doing, they dont have any other ideas for a government so how could they start a revolution?
In the inner circle, they're talking about how the people believe saying 2+2=4 is freedom, well that is a fact. It can be proven and everyone knows that 2 + 2 is 4, but I think that freedom of speech is saying my opinion or what I believe, it can't be proven. So, is it really freedom of speech?
I think Daniel has a good point - if Julia is Thought Police, why hasn't she already turned him in? What is it about Winston that would make Julia wait? Or what is it about Winston that would make the government want to hold on to him for a while longer?
I think that it would be hard to start a revolution with Winston because on the first page it describes him as having a job that is unimportant. If he tried many people would not notice
I think there's a possibility he is reading the childrens' history books in an attempt to remember something. Reading those books could maybe trigger an actual memory of his, or maybe he can remember what they said and see how they change in the future.
@Mikaela I think that they would want to kill Winston because he posses a threat. He remembers things. He now knows people in the proles. He also is breaking laws. People disappear for a lor less.
Winston is looking for knowledge but in a way i think he is afraid of what he will find. He said the scariest thing about reading the histroy book and investigating weather or not there true is that they might be actually true. I think he is afraid what he will find. Either he will find that his society is completely messed up or that what the government is saying is true.
If people disagree with the government, then how are they able to? The government is all they've ever known. They know what the government wants them to know. So how can this happen?
I think that Winston is drawn to the old man because he has information. Winston can learn from him. I think that Winston has a desire to learn that the party tries to supress. It oviously isn't working with Winston, so he still tries to learn.
We view change a part of life because our lives are constantly changing but for these people they know nothing so change is scary and something that will never happen.
@ Moritz- Winston knows the old man is old, and has a past. I think Winston wants information out of him, but that brings me to the question: What would he do with the information?
@Allysa I think some do know that the information they learn is false. I went to China and they joke by saying "What will we learn in history this year?" because the government does change the history. They know but what can they do about it?
@mikaela. I think at this point Winston just wants to know what is happening and what happened. He doesnt have a plan for what he would do if he found that is was truely all a lie.
What kind of reality do we have in this book??? Everyone is loaded on Victory Gin and are kept ignorant of pretty much everything. It seems to me that everyone goes through their daily lives with a veil over they face so that they cannot make out what is clear. Does that make sense?
@Jack- I would say that the other countries in the war are not socialistic. They could be fascismistic, or capitalist, because these kinds of differences create conflict; when one person thinks they do something the best way, others won't.
@moritz. I think that there is not sense of reality in this society. It is almost a fake reality. They think that what there doing and learning and feeling is real but its all a lie.
@ Morita - I think it makes sense in their society, but I think today people would become suspicious. The government in 1984 is doing all they can to keep the people to whats happening RIGHT NOW.
Moritz - kind of. It made me think of their jobs - which are part of their daily lives. It consumes them, and it only has to do with their country, really. So how could they see beyond the veil?
This government seems very fachist, very totalatian, so i think they may have World control abitions, they govenment type is right as weel as they can get support for anything from thier population.
I agree that the government is using war to take the eyes off of the govenment. In America, we were in the Great Deppression. When we finally went to war, nobody argued that government shoudl spend money and in doing so we got out of the bad economy. That is how this society is using the war.
Do you think goldstein is real? is he just a person to blame and if not why doesnt he try to stand up and fight for what he believes in. When people are listening to him talk why do they view him so negatively. He speaks of freedom and democracy why is everyone so afraid of that?
I think that when people fight for one cause they are bonded together and that is what this government might be doing so that the people will not think to rebell just hate
Like Griffin said - sleepwalking - relates back to Winston's comment about how society is unconscious. They know what they believe and when they "quack," they are unconscious.
I have to take us back to the discussion about Julia. In one sentence, Winston wants to bash her brains in, then in the next sentence, he wants to have sex with her. Do you think she will be important to the rest of the story, or do you think she will end up being a one night thing?
I personally believe that every body has an inate desire for more. The society is trying to convince them that they have more and with a lot of people it is working.
@Moritz. Maybe Julia wont be a important person in the book but she will show winston that it is not all about sex. Maybe he will see that having feelings and love is more important and thats what he needs to get back to.
@ Moritz- I don't think that this will just be a one night thing. She is already a big part of the story and I don't think that she will just be gone all the sudden.
@Moritz- I think that their relationship will be very important through the whole entire book. The cycle from him hating her, to wanting to have sex with her could repeat over and over.
@ Mortiz - I think Julia will be important in the rest of the story. I think she thinks in the same way he does... Against the parties and wanting freedom... And I do not think she would have given him a NOTE with I LOVE YOU written on it if she did not think that way.
I don't think Julia is a one-night stand, because Winston is way too enamored with her to not stay interested. If she didn't want some kind of relationship, she would have written "I want you." instead of "I love you."
@ Maria - But wouldn't Juila do anything to get information out of Winston if she was Thought Police? She might (if thought police) give him a fake love note...have sex...etc.
I agree with rebecca. I think that that this society does have so much faith in there government. No one wants to be a prole and the government didnt do anything for the proles so thats why they are who they are. People believe that without the party and big brother they would end up as the proles a terrible society.
Not really sure, Moritz. But I feel that she will remain in the story. Why? I don't know. There has to be something more. And like Daniel said - most people want more. The society is about more, in a way. More happiness due to more resources and production. I think there must be something more Julia has to offer. Besides, in Fahrenheit, Clarisse just talked to Montag. It was simpler than Winston and Julia's situation - they started off pretty strong. Maybe Julia's personality and lust will lead to Winston learning something.
@Moritz- Yes and No. It really depends on who it is. Like Julia, who obviosly wants to have sex, a relationship could go like this, especially if they dont know eachother well. But it could be much different and go to extremes either way...
A small group? the whole country is like that with a few execeptions, not the other way around. In fact the people in charge probably know the situation but do these for power.
The question was brought up "what is the government gaining from controlling these people?" and I think that Big Brother or the government is gaing controll. Power is something that people strive for and want to achieve
Like Rebecca said, people put things into the government to get things back- like in Sweden, the people pay high taxes to get tax-paid day care, dental care, etc. This contributes to a better society for those people that pay.
The people don't think that they are brainwashed, they think it's how it is. People outside, or people who think out of the box, see it as brainwashed. They only know what they've been told.
@ Nicole - At the cost of yourself...for your nation and governement.
We view this book as a horrible future but thats because we know that the future could be. Also, people now who have no food, clothes, housing and life is a constant struggle. Maybe they would not view this society so terrible. In the end the people are provided for, which is what people want. I think this all depends on your perspective and situation.
Well, Mark and Moritz, I think relationships are like that. Some relationships are characterized by the term "love-hate relationship." But it truth, doesn't that term describe every relationship on Earth? We argue and we disagree and yet we are still family and yet we are still friends. I do have to say that some relationships are probably leaning towards hate. If there is something negative in the relationship, isn't that what will be focused on, opposed to the positive aspect?
But they know nothing else! They forget what it used to be like, i agree that nasty soup all the time sucks, i love food. but to them that is good food becasue they are told it is good.
Nicole brought up a good point in the inner circle, we life life and take chances, but they don't. Do you think that in the book they take any chances at all? And do you think it is important for us to take chances? Why?
Why do you thinks Winston's feet took he to the store where he bought his diary?
ReplyDeleteI believe that Winston is correct when he says that the hope is in the proles because the proles make up most of the population. All they need to make a revolution is some outcast form the higher society to lead them into power.
ReplyDeleteThe proles are a lot like the lower classes. They greatly outnumber those around them but don't really have the resources or desire to start a revolution.
ReplyDeleteI think Winston believes in the Proles because they are not being watched all the time and they are seen lower then everyone so no one cares what they do and no one believes they would be smart enough to do it. I think that proles could have an revolution but they would need someone like Winston and Julia because they are in the government and close to the people in power.
ReplyDeleteThe Proles would rebel if something bad about the government came out that showed there really wasnt anything holding them down.
ReplyDeleteI think that Winston says that there is hope in the proles because the proles aren't watched as closely as the city people are and would be able to organize something, like a revolution, easier than the city people.
ReplyDeleteThe proles would rebel for the same reason that the United States did, to get more freedom and more equality.
ReplyDeleteI don't get the proles either. Are they people that are just content with the government, and so content, that the government does not worry about them being a threat?
ReplyDeleteWhat did Syme mean when he said the paroels were not human?
ReplyDeleteMakaela- I think the reason he wanted to get a diary is because he needed something to just "vent" to. There was no one that he felt comfortable to talk about the things that he writes in his diary.
ReplyDeleteThe Proles are different because they enjoy the little things that are gone when you are a party menber
ReplyDeleteI think the proles know just as much as the party members. They aren't watched though so they have a better chance of creating a ground to revolutionize.
ReplyDeleteI agree they are almost brainwashed... they dont remember certain things because of some reason and that reason could be OBrian
ReplyDeleteCould the Victory supplies be what is making the people be oblivious to the lying by the government.
ReplyDeleteThe people have been brainwashed and I think that if they worked very hard the older people may be able to access old memories
ReplyDeleteThe proles obviously outnumber The Party, but I don't think they are capable of starting a revolution, especially not at this point. They are unorganized and will live life how they want to, so I don't think they would be able to start anything effective.
ReplyDeleteI actually dont think Julia really loves Winston. I just think she sees that he is not as brainwashed as he should be and wants to get to him somehow.
ReplyDeleteI agree that there is hope in the proles, but they don't really have interest in starting a Revolution. If people were trying to get the proles to rebel, I think that the government might notice.
ReplyDelete@GarrettD yes because it is the only brand the people knoow besides the black market so it seems like the gov. is doing something good
ReplyDeleteShe is not thinking the same way he is though, because she only does bad things because she can, she doesn't want to change the society while Winston does want to chane society.
ReplyDeleteI think that the thing with Julia is a little bit of many things - they want to be loved, they want to love someone.
ReplyDeleteWhat if Julia is just bait, waiting for him to do something bad so the government can catch him in the act. Kind of like the FBI did to that guy in Seatle?
ReplyDeleteJack- I think that Syme meant that the paroels dont function like a normal human would. The way that the paroels act is not the function that humans with freedom of thought have. Everyone has been brainwashed...
ReplyDeleteRight now, I don't think Julia really loves Winston. If his suspicions are correct and she hates him, then this could be an intricate trap to lure him into thoughtcrime. However, we don't really know a lot about Julia's motives, so it could be something completely separate.
ReplyDeleteI think that Julia says she loves Winston because they live in a world where relationships are only for the Party. They want someone who has true love and a sexual relationship because this makes them feel like they have power over the repression of the party.
ReplyDelete@ Maria - If Juila were to get Winston's attention, what would she want/do with him knowing he is different from everyone else.
ReplyDeleteGarett i think that they must have something to do with their ignorance becasue they seem to be mandatory to take so they kinda must have some purpose.
ReplyDeleteIs Julia like Katherine? In the way she doesn't want just a loving relationship.
ReplyDelete@Garrettj- I think that your question is very probable. I also think that this shows how paranoid people get after spies started showing up.
ReplyDeleteDoes Juila just want to "contribut to the party"?
ReplyDeleteShe might not know Winston Personaly but she may know more about him than we know
ReplyDelete@Mikaela... Well, first she wants him for sex and secondly she could want him to join her because she might be opposed to the inner party and stuff and can tell that he is too.
ReplyDelete@ Jack - I think people classify them differently because they are different, less knowledgeable.
ReplyDeleteI think it is like India where you are born in a class and you stay there until you die.
ReplyDeleteI think that they might have known eachother before but then forgot that they know eachother just like everyone else forgets the past. How else could Winston have these descriptive dreams about her.
ReplyDeleteIf Julia is trying to pick up Winston, is she really the model citizen that she looks like? With all her Junior Anti-Sex League and stuff?
ReplyDeleteBut I also think that yes, both of them want to have sex. When sex isn't really allowed in this society, only for the production of children for the Party, I think many, many people want to have sex for pleasure.
ReplyDelete@Mikaela, I don't think that she just wants to "contribute to the party" because it seems more like she just wants to have sex with him, not make babies.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that spies are actually a problem? or are they fictitious and just created to give the Party a problem taht keeps its followers busy?
ReplyDelete@ Maria - So she wants sex with him and she thinks that they think similarly?
ReplyDeletei wish she wanted to have a loving relationship :( then they would be able to understand eachother better
ReplyDeleteMikaela- I think that no one is secure in this society, like in a lot of the other books that we have read. Julia could be a lot like Katherine except she doesn't want to get pregnant...
ReplyDeleteI think the author is trying to show that this is what society will become if this type of society takes over. No reltionships. People just trying to get into the others pants. This is not what we want in society.
ReplyDelete@ Abbie - Why don't you think that she doesn't want babies? Why does she want the sex?
ReplyDeleteI think that relationships are simply for the Party - providing a child and keepin it moving. It's hard to imagine there is something deeper.
ReplyDeleteWhat if the "I love you" note is just a trap to pull him into a relationship to expose him? And she said she had sex with other party members and she doesn't seem to be with them anymore.
ReplyDeleteWhat you guys are trying to say is that she wants to have sex with him, but he takes it as an act of wanting to have a love relationship.
ReplyDelete@Mikaelam maybe she just likes it
ReplyDeleteWhy did Julia want to have sex with Winston? does she want a relationship with him after, a friendship or does she see that Winston sees something wrong with this society? It seems that Winson is almost connected to Julia in a way thats deeper then just sex. He is always thinking about her and wanted to know her. Maybe Julia will change and have different intentions later?
ReplyDeleteRight--@GarrettJ--What if Julia is Thought Police???
ReplyDeleteI think their relationship is a door of sorts that will push the plot onto a new track.
ReplyDelete@Mikaela - Yes... I did read ahead a little...
ReplyDelete@ Garrett J. - What could she expose? His diary? Or what he thinks of society?
ReplyDeleteI Think that their relationship signigfies the desire to get out from beneath the governments repression.
ReplyDeleteI think that the relationship between Julia and Winston is about breaking the rules. I think that it may be one of the things that can start a revolution in 1984
ReplyDelete@ Mikaela- I think that if she wanted to have children she would have made that more evident, but instead, like Cory said, she is just suducing him. The fact that she isn't even talking about kids or anything says that that's probably not what she wants.
ReplyDeletei think they are rebelious, they want to break the rules and go on a wim to see how things work out. They want to challange the system
ReplyDeleteMikaela- She wants the sex to get him to do something above what he wants too... Maybe its because she is part of the Thought Police, and she is trying to get him caught??
ReplyDeleteSo can the thought police be imperfect as well? It makes sense that a thought cop could get away with almost anything because they wouldnt monitor another thought cop,
ReplyDeleteI don't believe that Julia is the thought police because she wouldnt be in this relationship if she was.
ReplyDelete@Abby I think that she wants to have sex because she can: because she feels like a rebel. Just having a relationship isn't really that rebelious.
ReplyDelete@moritz if Julia was in the thought police that would change everything. Maybe Julia is just testing Winston to see if Winston is a true citizen or not. Maybe that is the her role in the party. She is a thought police but she catches people in a different way. Because Wnston is so careful of what he does, maybe thats why they would send Julia after him, because he is different from the rest.
ReplyDeleteI think that people abuse sex all the time. They use it as power over others.
ReplyDeleteIf Julia is Thought Police... CRAP.
ReplyDeleteIt makes me wonder why Julia would just move from Party member to Party member if it were not for exposing them for whatever it is. Then again, she just may tire of them and want to move on. But why haven't any of the Party members she has slept with told on her?
@mark if she was thought police then why would they even investigate he could have an accident no questions asked
ReplyDeleteBecause if you catch someone doing something or draw them into doing something them you have proof that makes it easier to convict.
ReplyDelete@Kara - Maybe Julia wants to have sex with Winston beacause it's a normal human instinct to want that.
ReplyDeleteI agree with megan, they would just kill him if they suspected him!! but there is also a possiblilty that they could be trying to get in his head and make sure that their asumptions are right.
ReplyDeleteIf Juila is Thouht Police, I think that is a very peculiar way to get information out of people...especially if they don't want a relationship. I don't think that many secrets would be shared if they were just having sex. I think that a relationship is more about getting to know each other (sharing secrest).
ReplyDeleteI agree with Moritz. what if sex is just a way to show superiority.
ReplyDelete@Griff: I read your comment earlier and I agree, because if she doesnt want to have kids, then what other reason would she have sex for... Well I think its pretty obvious, like you said, because she likes it.
ReplyDelete@Kara--and she is a woman seducing him. So, I think she has a better chance of "catching" him than anyone else.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Rebecca - He doesn't know all that much about her , who he risk what he thinks (his "freedom") for her?
ReplyDelete@ Jack- Maybe if the thought police don't monitor each other, then could the hope really be in the thoght police? Or are they too loyal to rebel against The Party?
ReplyDelete@garrettj In this society there is no need for evidence to convict just a bunch of bs that the people will buy if he was in a group then dissapears fear is a great motivator
ReplyDeleteIf Julia really is Thought Police, then what would happen if Juila and Winston go further than just getting information out of him?
ReplyDeleteIt is kind of odd. Usually the males do most of the seducing. The whole thing seems suspicious to me.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that if Julia is setting him up she would get in trouble. It would be her job and thats what they told her to do.
ReplyDeleteThe inner circle was talking about how Winston is so careful - keeping his face neutral, keeping quiet... he knows how to play the game. If Julia were just drawing him into a trap, Winston may fall even though he is normall cautious... because he's caught up in it all. Sex! Maybe love! He may stumble.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that the Government(Big Brother) owuld waste so much reasourses and time on this one worker, just to make sure they don't kill an innocent, its the opposite of thier policies. espessially if Julia is thought police.
ReplyDeleteWhy would Juila (if in Thought Police) go to so much trouble for Winston's secrets/information?
ReplyDeleteIf Julia is the thought police, wouldn't she already have enough information to kill Winston. They kill people for a lot less, just because they seem bad. She could easily have put him away. It seems more likely to me that O'brien is a part of the thought police. He seems different and he comes to talk to him only after he has only done very bad things.
ReplyDelete@ Mikaela- Yes thats very true! If she actually started to fall in love with him, then they would both be on the same team. The bad guy (girl) becomes good and helps the good guy out. Maybe this could turn into the same situation...
ReplyDelete@ Daniel - Why would they want to kill Winston?
ReplyDeleteI think Winston isn't worried about Julia's intentions. He's hoping to have a real love, but he's already predicted his own death...why would he not take a chance on a good possibility?
ReplyDeleteThat is an interesting thought. Do the proles really not know that the people that win the lottery dont actually get the money. I think the proles wouldnt want to rebel either because they never talk to people from the government. When winston walked in the bar everyone was stunned that he was there. No prole is really connected to anyone from the party so they would not really go what is going on.
ReplyDelete@mark when you responded to me I thought of this she may just like it because it is a release there are no sports or anything to channel yourself into in the book
ReplyDeleteGarrett - I disagree with your idea that males do most of the seducing. Is that based on movies you've seen? How do we know who always seduces? It is definitely either way.
ReplyDelete@abbie, mabye julia will eb the first to turn over or something along those line and she will start converting other thought police.
ReplyDeleteI think that because Winston's society is so restriced, just a little bit looser struceter is what he considers freedom. Our society is way more free than theirs.
ReplyDeleteI think that some proof that overthrowing government doesn't work very well is in the movie Valkyrie. The plan was very well thought out and it still didn't work in the end. Also if you don't succeed then you are likley to get killed.
ReplyDelete@Griff- Yeah... thats a pretty good way to keep some people reading a book.
ReplyDelete@ Mark - I'm not sure that it would turn to "love" per say,(they may get introuble if they fall in love) but what if she decides to not rat him out? How could that change the course of the book, Winson's life, the Thought Police?
ReplyDeleteI think that the goverment in this society makes it seem like they have rights. for example, they have the "right" to do two minutes of hate. They dont know any better than what they have.
ReplyDeleteI think that America has a similar idea of freedom. At the start of America we basiclly said freedom if the ability to say God exists. It is not that much different than the ability to say that two plus two does equal four. Over time I think that we have thought of freedom differently than before.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Rebecca. There may be alot of people that dont agree with what the government is doing, they dont have any other ideas for a government so how could they start a revolution?
ReplyDelete@ mark what do you mean sell more copies
ReplyDeleteIn the inner circle, they're talking about how the people believe saying 2+2=4 is freedom, well that is a fact. It can be proven and everyone knows that 2 + 2 is 4, but I think that freedom of speech is saying my opinion or what I believe, it can't be proven. So, is it really freedom of speech?
ReplyDeleteI think Daniel has a good point - if Julia is Thought Police, why hasn't she already turned him in? What is it about Winston that would make Julia wait? Or what is it about Winston that would make the government want to hold on to him for a while longer?
ReplyDeleteWhat about the old man in the bar. Why is Winston drawn to him?
ReplyDeleteBoth... Some people keep reading or buy a book just cause it has sex in it.
ReplyDeleteI think that it would be hard to start a revolution with Winston because on the first page it describes him as having a job that is unimportant. If he tried many people would not notice
ReplyDeleteI that the childrens books represent way more than we think. They could represent knowledge, happiness or maybe the joy of not alot of change
ReplyDeleteI think there's a possibility he is reading the childrens' history books in an attempt to remember something. Reading those books could maybe trigger an actual memory of his, or maybe he can remember what they said and see how they change in the future.
ReplyDeleteI think winston is drawn to him because he might show discomfort in a society in which there has been so much change.
ReplyDelete@Mikaela I think that they would want to kill Winston because he posses a threat. He remembers things. He now knows people in the proles. He also is breaking laws. People disappear for a lor less.
ReplyDeleteWinston is looking for knowledge but in a way i think he is afraid of what he will find. He said the scariest thing about reading the histroy book and investigating weather or not there true is that they might be actually true. I think he is afraid what he will find. Either he will find that his society is completely messed up or that what the government is saying is true.
ReplyDelete@mark Ya we do live in a capitalist society anything for money
ReplyDeleteThe history books have just enough information about the past ot make most of the people content, no questioning why so much of the past is unknown.
ReplyDeleteTo them all this knowledge is true though.
ReplyDeleteIf people disagree with the government, then how are they able to? The government is all they've ever known. They know what the government wants them to know. So how can this happen?
ReplyDelete@Moritz, I think that he is drawn to him because in many cultures older people are figures of knowledge.
ReplyDelete@GarrettD--what does Winston learn from the old man?
ReplyDeleteI have a question. Are the other countries similar? so is eurasia and eastasia this totalitarionistic? or are they capitalistic?
ReplyDelete@griff- yes... agreed
ReplyDelete@ Daniel - But he doesn't remember his childhood? Do you think he will remeber what's happen right now, years from now...and that would be the threat?
ReplyDeleteThey believe that the knowledge and information they learn is true
ReplyDelete@ moritz I think that the old man shows winston how fast the world can change
ReplyDeleteI think that Winston is drawn to the old man because he has information. Winston can learn from him. I think that Winston has a desire to learn that the party tries to supress. It oviously isn't working with Winston, so he still tries to learn.
ReplyDeleteI think Winston has knoledge he just is afraid to express his real thoughts.
ReplyDelete@ Moritz's question Winston learns that all the true history was with the proles. Sadly, they didn't record any of it.
ReplyDeleteWe view change a part of life because our lives are constantly changing but for these people they know nothing so change is scary and something that will never happen.
ReplyDelete@ Moritz- Winston knows the old man is old, and has a past. I think Winston wants information out of him, but that brings me to the question: What would he do with the information?
ReplyDeleteMikaela - isn't memory erased from this society?
ReplyDelete@ Kara - Right. The past is erased, so people are never exposed to change.
ReplyDelete@GarretD- But I think they didnt record it for a reason, dont you agree?
ReplyDelete@Allysa I think some do know that the information they learn is false. I went to China and they joke by saying "What will we learn in history this year?" because the government does change the history. They know but what can they do about it?
ReplyDelete@mikaela. I think at this point Winston just wants to know what is happening and what happened. He doesnt have a plan for what he would do if he found that is was truely all a lie.
ReplyDeleteWhat kind of reality do we have in this book??? Everyone is loaded on Victory Gin and are kept ignorant of pretty much everything. It seems to me that everyone goes through their daily lives with a veil over they face so that they cannot make out what is clear. Does that make sense?
ReplyDelete@mikaela i think he would go write about it in his man diary
ReplyDelete@Jack- I would say that the other countries in the war are not socialistic. They could be fascismistic, or capitalist, because these kinds of differences create conflict; when one person thinks they do something the best way, others won't.
ReplyDelete@ Natalie - Yes, they don't want the people to know what happened in the past.
ReplyDelete@ Alyssa - Write what? Why?
ReplyDelete@Moritz- Yes everyone at sometime has a tendancy not to be themselves and you may never know what they are really like...
ReplyDeleteWar keeps the countries on a constant economic "high" the only way to keep this is to keep at war.
ReplyDelete@moritz. I think that there is not sense of reality in this society. It is almost a fake reality. They think that what there doing and learning and feeling is real but its all a lie.
ReplyDelete@ Mrs. Moritz the reality seems to be like sleepwalking becasue is seems really monotonous and piontless
ReplyDeleteBut eventually you will run out of wars to fight so their system will crash down around them.
ReplyDelete@ Morita - I think it makes sense in their society, but I think today people would become suspicious. The government in 1984 is doing all they can to keep the people to whats happening RIGHT NOW.
ReplyDeleteMoritz - kind of. It made me think of their jobs - which are part of their daily lives. It consumes them, and it only has to do with their country, really. So how could they see beyond the veil?
ReplyDeleteWar keeps peace inside of the country because it keeps them from thinking about anything else. I think about our war every day.
ReplyDelete@GarrettD- Yes, like in World War 2, which made many countries recover from their depression...
ReplyDeleteThis government seems very fachist, very totalatian, so i think they may have World control abitions, they govenment type is right as weel as they can get support for anything from thier population.
ReplyDelete@ GarrettD until you have degeated all your enimies then you will fight your internal enimies and you dont need an economy because of the caos
ReplyDeleteWe have talked about this in Social Studies...that wars do put an economic boom on society. But to me, war is sort of a terrible solution.
ReplyDelete@GarrettD, that's a good point, why do you think that countries are at an economic high during war?
ReplyDeleteI agree that the government is using war to take the eyes off of the govenment. In America, we were in the Great Deppression. When we finally went to war, nobody argued that government shoudl spend money and in doing so we got out of the bad economy. That is how this society is using the war.
ReplyDelete@ Griffin - If they defeat all opposition, the world would be tiny.
ReplyDeleteDo you think goldstein is real? is he just a person to blame and if not why doesnt he try to stand up and fight for what he believes in. When people are listening to him talk why do they view him so negatively. He speaks of freedom and democracy why is everyone so afraid of that?
ReplyDeleteI think that when people fight for one cause they are bonded together and that is what this government might be doing so that the people will not think to rebell just hate
ReplyDeleteLike Griffin said - sleepwalking - relates back to Winston's comment about how society is unconscious. They know what they believe and when they "quack," they are unconscious.
ReplyDeleteBeing free makes you a slave of your own free will because you have to be responsible which can be difficult.
ReplyDeleteI have to take us back to the discussion about Julia. In one sentence, Winston wants to bash her brains in, then in the next sentence, he wants to have sex with her. Do you think she will be important to the rest of the story, or do you think she will end up being a one night thing?
ReplyDelete@Abbie- because all of the production of weapons makes more jobs open and available.
ReplyDeleteI think that the society has everyone so paranoid that Winston isnt able to trust anyone.
ReplyDeleteI think it is wrong to say communist I think it is more of a nazi society because of military control and extermination of enimies
ReplyDeleteI think she will become more important. But I don't know how?1 (Probably: sex, Winston, thought police...I'm not sure)
ReplyDeleteMoritz - are you asking if she will be a character like Clarisse in Fahrenheit? Come in for a purpose, then disappear.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't know what you wnat you can't do anything about it which is benificial to the government.
ReplyDeleteI personally believe that every body has an inate desire for more. The society is trying to convince them that they have more and with a lot of people it is working.
ReplyDeleteAll it is is that certain people are content with less than other people.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think Natalie?
ReplyDelete@Moritz. Maybe Julia wont be a important person in the book but she will show winston that it is not all about sex. Maybe he will see that having feelings and love is more important and thats what he needs to get back to.
ReplyDelete@ Moritz- I don't think that this will just be a one night thing. She is already a big part of the story and I don't think that she will just be gone all the sudden.
ReplyDeleteThey are willing to risk their lives? for what? to believe something thats not true?
ReplyDelete@ Garrett D i agree it comes from the amount of drive for something
ReplyDelete@Moritz- I think that their relationship will be very important through the whole entire book. The cycle from him hating her, to wanting to have sex with her could repeat over and over.
ReplyDelete@ Mortiz - I think Julia will be important in the rest of the story. I think she thinks in the same way he does... Against the parties and wanting freedom... And I do not think she would have given him a NOTE with I LOVE YOU written on it if she did not think that way.
ReplyDelete@ Moritz - Does Winston think it is all about sex? I thought he already sort of wanted to be in love?!.
ReplyDelete@ mark i think tha the cyclical relationship can represent that of a people with their government
ReplyDeleteI don't think Julia is a one-night stand, because Winston is way too enamored with her to not stay interested. If she didn't want some kind of relationship, she would have written "I want you." instead of "I love you."
ReplyDelete@Mark--Do you think relationships are like that?
ReplyDelete@ Maria - But wouldn't Juila do anything to get information out of Winston if she was Thought Police? She might (if thought police) give him a fake love note...have sex...etc.
ReplyDeleteI agree with rebecca. I think that that this society does have so much faith in there government. No one wants to be a prole and the government didnt do anything for the proles so thats why they are who they are. People believe that without the party and big brother they would end up as the proles a terrible society.
ReplyDeleteThe government has gained power. Power over people and to make them do anything
ReplyDeleteI think the govenrment is selfish and the people are selfless (for the government).
ReplyDelete@Hannah--
ReplyDeleteWhat does that mean?
The government took from the people to gain power, got lots of power, and is using it to take from the people...one big circle of lies.
ReplyDeleteNot really sure, Moritz. But I feel that she will remain in the story. Why? I don't know. There has to be something more. And like Daniel said - most people want more. The society is about more, in a way. More happiness due to more resources and production. I think there must be something more Julia has to offer. Besides, in Fahrenheit, Clarisse just talked to Montag. It was simpler than Winston and Julia's situation - they started off pretty strong. Maybe Julia's personality and lust will lead to Winston learning something.
ReplyDeleteI think you get high in this governmenet by knowing the right people during the revolution then kissing some butt after it
ReplyDelete@Moritz- Yes and No. It really depends on who it is. Like Julia, who obviosly wants to have sex, a relationship could go like this, especially if they dont know eachother well. But it could be much different and go to extremes either way...
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with griffin.
ReplyDeleteA small group? the whole country is like that with a few execeptions, not the other way around. In fact the people in charge probably know the situation but do these for power.
ReplyDelete@Mark. I think disfunctional relationships work like that.
ReplyDeleteThe question was brought up "what is the government gaining from controlling these people?" and I think that Big Brother or the government is gaing controll. Power is something that people strive for and want to achieve
ReplyDelete@Griffin Is that very different than our society?
ReplyDeleteLike Rebecca said, people put things into the government to get things back- like in Sweden, the people pay high taxes to get tax-paid day care, dental care, etc. This contributes to a better society for those people that pay.
ReplyDelete@Mikaela - I suppose you have a good point. But isnt she putting herself into jeopardy as well by doing what she did?
ReplyDeleteThe people don't think that they are brainwashed, they think it's how it is. People outside, or people who think out of the box, see it as brainwashed.
ReplyDeleteThey only know what they've been told.
@ Nicole - At the cost of yourself...for your nation and governement.
Some people like stability and safety nets. I like being free.
ReplyDeleteThis is just like in the Great Depression, all people wanted is some security.
ReplyDelete@Moritz- Yes, when two people just jump into a relationship right away bad things can happen (Romeo and Juliet)
ReplyDeleteWe view this book as a horrible future but thats because we know that the future could be. Also, people now who have no food, clothes, housing and life is a constant struggle. Maybe they would not view this society so terrible. In the end the people are provided for, which is what people want. I think this all depends on your perspective and situation.
ReplyDelete@ daniel yes look at some countries the people who have the power are old buds that fought toghther in the revolution
ReplyDeleteWell, Mark and Moritz, I think relationships are like that. Some relationships are characterized by the term "love-hate relationship." But it truth, doesn't that term describe every relationship on Earth? We argue and we disagree and yet we are still family and yet we are still friends. I do have to say that some relationships are probably leaning towards hate. If there is something negative in the relationship, isn't that what will be focused on, opposed to the positive aspect?
ReplyDeleteBut they know nothing else! They forget what it used to be like, i agree that nasty soup all the time sucks, i love food. but to them that is good food becasue they are told it is good.
ReplyDeleteNicole brought up a good point in the inner circle, we life life and take chances, but they don't. Do you think that in the book they take any chances at all? And do you think it is important for us to take chances? Why?
ReplyDelete@ Maria - Jepoardy for what?
ReplyDeleteI wonder if it's ok to do anything as a Though Policewoman for the good of the government. (The death of opposition)
If not, I understand the risk. If so, what is she risking?
Isn't our government pretty much just like this. Our gov. isn't just going to let things go.
ReplyDelete@Mark- Romeo and Juliet were star-crossed lovers. Does that really apply to people today?
ReplyDelete